From: owner-sycophant-digest@smoe.org (sycophant-digest) To: sycophant-digest@smoe.org Subject: sycophant-digest V3 #64 Reply-To: sycophant@smoe.org Sender: owner-sycophant-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-sycophant-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk sycophant-digest Thursday, July 23 1998 Volume 03 : Number 064 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: sycophant Re: MELLENCAMP/what song? ["Rob Hermann, Wash U, History" <] RE: sycophant Re: MELLENCAMP/what song? [Marc Tobolski ] sycophant "Slide" [bilbo hicks ] Re: sycophant Re: MELLENCAMP/what song? [Venmlegion@aol.com] Re: sycophant Re: scalpers and such [Venmlegion@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:18:24 -0500 (CDT) From: "Rob Hermann, Wash U, History" Subject: RE: sycophant Re: MELLENCAMP/what song? I hate to drag this out, but I think it's a serious problem of perspective to call Mellencamp a starving artist. Of course, I don't know how much money the man made during the 80s, but judging by the number of times I had to endure his videos, I'd say it was a tidy sum. Why, then, does he feel the need to charge outrageous ticket sums to make more money, when Fugazi (to name one instance) who never (to my knowledge) makes videos, doesn't sell platinum records, refuses to charge more than 10 dollars per gig? I'm not saying John Mellencamp isn't a worthy artist. He has made some original music, and some catchy music (although not necessarily at the same time) and he's often committed himself to causes far bigger than himself. But I also have to take issue with something someone else on this list said about Mellencamp singlehandedly dragging "bluegrass and country" into rock. And I think this statement needs to be qualified: Elvis, Bob Dylan, the Byrds, the Band, Bruce Springsteen, Tom Petty, and particularly Gram Parsons and the Flying Burrito Brothers were experimenting with those same styles and "dragging them into the mainstream" long before Mellencamp even thought of it, or at least demonstrated that he was thinking of it by putting it on record. Just for the record: I love Slide (because I thought there needed to be a mention of Lisa somewhere in this post). I don't know if it's my favorite yet but I know it's far better than Excerpts from a Love Circus (which I nonetheless also loved). Robin Hermann Office: 935-7341 Department of History Home: 361-6634 Washington University email:rhermann@artsci.wustl.edu Web:www.artsci.wustl.edu/~rhermann - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- "History has to live with what was here, clutching and close to fumbling all we had-- it is so dull and gruesome how we die, unlike writing, life never finishes". - --Robert Lowell, "History" On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Marc Tobolski wrote: > Sincerity is to be measured by how much an artist charges for their > services? The "starving artist" is merely starving and quite often as not, > not an artist. Is Van Gogh a hack now that his paintings sell for $65 > million? Does the music sound less sweet on CD for you when you know > somewhere, someone else paid $150 for the ability to hear JM play live? > Then methinks the problem does not lie with JM... > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rob Hermann, Wash U, History [SMTP:rhermann@artsci.wustl.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 1998 10:36 AM > To: sycophant@smoe.org > Subject: Re: sycophant Re: MELLENCAMP/what song? > > To all those who wish to debate Mellencamp's sincerity: I have doubted the > man and essentially stopped listening to his records (except Human Wheels > [his best] and some of the Lonesome Jubilee) ever since he toured about a > year ago to theaters, charging prices in the triple digits. From Barbra > Streisand I expect this kind of egocentric, insulting behavior, but from > the man who once (long ago, it seems) proclaimed himself the champion of > the american farmer (and heartland, more generally)? It's a bit of a > shock. > > Robin Hermann Office: 935-7341 > Department of History Home: 361-6634 > Washington University email:rhermann@artsci.wustl.edu > Web:www.artsci.wustl.edu/~rhermann > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > "History has to live with what was here, > clutching and close to fumbling all we had-- > it is so dull and gruesome how we die, > unlike writing, life never finishes". > --Robert Lowell, "History" > > > > > ------- > To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with the message: > unsubscribe sycophant > > > > > ------- > To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with the message: > unsubscribe sycophant > > - ------- To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with the message: unsubscribe sycophant ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 08:58:51 -0700 From: Marc Tobolski Subject: RE: sycophant Re: MELLENCAMP/what song? I made the allusion to "starving artist" based upon your comments that JM had no business charging that sum for his shows. Now you have completed the circle w/Fugazi. Could they get $100+ per seat for a show? I don't think so. Does perceived greed on JM's part diminish his art? I don't think so. Why do you feel the need to degrade out-of-hand his art because you don't agree with his overt capitalism? And if his videos are painful and difficult for you to watch (hence your term "endure"), why the hell did you keep watching them? The Clash refused for years to allow their label to charge more than $8 (at that time) for their albums, $11 for London Calling and $14 for Sandinista! Their reason? They wanted their friends to be able to afford them. Hell, charge all us non-friends going rate and GIVE the record to their friends. My point being that each artist should be able to choose how they charge for their work. However, everyone should also be able to choose how they perceive said artists. Robin, I was the one who made the statement about "re-introducing bluegrass and country". You may not want to get me started on this subject. "Re-introducing" is and was the key word here. Don't modify my statements to fit your argument. BTW, you forgot (at least) Poco, Johnny Cash, Buffalo Springfield and Michael Nesmith. And, you never really addressed my statement regarding: . Is Van Gogh a hack now that his paintings sell for $65 million? Does the music sound less sweet on CD for you when you know somewhere, someone else paid $150 for the ability to hear JM play live? Then methinks the problem does not lie with JM... Perhaps it is because you have conceded the point. Marc Visit me at CubeCam! http://www.CableOne.net/tobolski/ - -----Original Message----- From: Rob Hermann, Wash U, History [SMTP:rhermann@artsci.wustl.edu] Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 1998 8:30 AM To: 'sycophant@smoe.org' Subject: RE: sycophant Re: MELLENCAMP/what song? I hate to drag this out, but I think it's a serious problem of perspective to call Mellencamp a starving artist. Of course, I don't know how much money the man made during the 80s, but judging by the number of times I had to endure his videos, I'd say it was a tidy sum. Why, then, does he feel the need to charge outrageous ticket sums to make more money, when Fugazi (to name one instance) who never (to my knowledge) makes videos, doesn't sell platinum records, refuses to charge more than 10 dollars per gig? I'm not saying John Mellencamp isn't a worthy artist. He has made some original music, and some catchy music (although not necessarily at the same time) and he's often committed himself to causes far bigger than himself. But I also have to take issue with something someone else on this list said about Mellencamp singlehandedly dragging "bluegrass and country" into rock. And I think this statement needs to be qualified: Elvis, Bob Dylan, the Byrds, the Band, Bruce Springsteen, Tom Petty, and particularly Gram Parsons and the Flying Burrito Brothers were experimenting with those same styles and "dragging them into the mainstream" long before Mellencamp even thought of it, or at least demonstrated that he was thinking of it by putting it on record. Just for the record: I love Slide (because I thought there needed to be a mention of Lisa somewhere in this post). I don't know if it's my favorite yet but I know it's far better than Excerpts from a Love Circus (which I nonetheless also loved). Robin Hermann Office: 935-7341 Department of History Home: 361-6634 Washington University email:rhermann@artsci.wustl.edu Web:www.artsci.wustl.edu/~rhermann - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- "History has to live with what was here, clutching and close to fumbling all we had-- it is so dull and gruesome how we die, unlike writing, life never finishes". - --Robert Lowell, "History" On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Marc Tobolski wrote: > Sincerity is to be measured by how much an artist charges for their > services? The "starving artist" is merely starving and quite often as not, > not an artist. Is Van Gogh a hack now that his paintings sell for $65 > million? Does the music sound less sweet on CD for you when you know > somewhere, someone else paid $150 for the ability to hear JM play live? > Then methinks the problem does not lie with JM... > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rob Hermann, Wash U, History [SMTP:rhermann@artsci.wustl.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 1998 10:36 AM > To: sycophant@smoe.org > Subject: Re: sycophant Re: MELLENCAMP/what song? > > To all those who wish to debate Mellencamp's sincerity: I have doubted the > man and essentially stopped listening to his records (except Human Wheels > [his best] and some of the Lonesome Jubilee) ever since he toured about a > year ago to theaters, charging prices in the triple digits. From Barbra > Streisand I expect this kind of egocentric, insulting behavior, but from > the man who once (long ago, it seems) proclaimed himself the champion of > the american farmer (and heartland, more generally)? It's a bit of a > shock. > > Robin Hermann Office: 935-7341 > Department of History Home: 361-6634 > Washington University email:rhermann@artsci.wustl.edu > Web:www.artsci.wustl.edu/~rhermann > - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > "History has to live with what was here, > clutching and close to fumbling all we had-- > it is so dull and gruesome how we die, > unlike writing, life never finishes". > --Robert Lowell, "History" > > > > > ------- > To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with the message: > unsubscribe sycophant > > > > > ------- > To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with the message: > unsubscribe sycophant > > - ------- To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with the message: unsubscribe sycophant - ------- To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with the message: unsubscribe sycophant ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:56:12 -0700 From: Marc Tobolski Subject: RE: sycophant Where do I ship them? Simon: I was slow in getting everything to the Post Office. It went out Air Mail on Monday. I did receive the check & stamps. Thank you! Once again, I apologize for the delay... Marc Visit me at CubeCam! http://www.CableOne.net/tobolski/ - -----Original Message----- From: Simon Shuker [SMTP:shuker@cheerful.com] Sent: Thursday, July 09, 1998 2:24 PM To: 'sycophant@smoe.org' Subject: RE: sycophant Where do I ship them? Then again, I had better make sure that I have your address. Is it still Marc Tobolski 18845 N. 43rd Place Phoenix, AZ 85024? Simon > Whoops, I have been off work for a day, and just realised I didn't include > the address in my original post. On the upside, I have obtained the US > $20 and got some good stamps and stuff (NZ $2 and $1 became coins a > few years ago). > >Anyway, an address is: > >Simon Shuker >74 Fairlie Tce >Kelburn >Wellington >New Zealand > >I'll send mine off tomorrow. Thanks, > >Simon -----Original Message----- From: Marc Tobolski [SMTP:marc.tobolski@cableone.net] Sent: Thursday, July 09, 1998 7:53 AM To: 'sycophant@smoe.org' Subject: sycophant Where do I ship them? Hey... I made a deal here with someone for the 2 LG cd's that I have (GtG promo & Lovesick single). What's the address again? - ------- To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with the message: unsubscribe sycophant ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 11:56:45 -0500 (CDT) From: "Rob Hermann, Wash U, History" Subject: RE: sycophant Re: MELLENCAMP/what song? Well, just to draw this out one more time... I haven't conceded anything. I think the comparison between JM and Van Gogh (laughable as it is) doesn't work for this argument, if only because the two artists work in two different media, and Van Gogh sells for 65 million dollars _today_ for a whole host of reasons that have little, if anything, to do with his art. Maybe in 150 years when there are three JM CDs left in the world, each one will sell for 65 million dollars. Plus, Van Gogh sells for 65 million dollars for reasons far beyond his control, while JM chooses (for the most part) how much his tickets will cost. And I think, Mark, you're choosing to ignore the thrust of my criticism, which is simply this: after JM took control of his recording career in the early 1980s, he began to represent himself as the champion of the heartland farmer. Now, I'm not taking issue with this stance; the heartland farmers are a worthy cause. What I am taking issue with is the contradiction inherent in the adoption of that stance and his decision a decade later to charge truly exorbitant ticket prices. If he is a capitalist, well and good. I truly don't care. I'll still listen to Human Wheels, since it is a good album. All I'm saying is that it is a trifle bizarre for someone to portray themselves as the hero of the lower and underclasses (watch the Paper in Fire video closely) and then ensure that those same people can't see his shows. I apologize for misrepresenting your argument about bluegrass and country. But even before the Lonesome Jubilee, Tom Petty had been making similar moves since at least his 1980 release, Hard Promises. Finally, "why the hell did I watch those videos"? Well...if you grow up in backwater, rural Louisiana, and you get cable for the first time, MTV becomes one of your only contacts with what you percieve to be the real world, out there somewhere. And John Mellencamp was all over MTV in the 80s, although he was hardly the only offender. - Robin Hermann Office: 935-7341 Department of History Home: 361-6634 Washington University email:rhermann@artsci.wustl.edu Web:www.artsci.wustl.edu/~rhermann - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- "History has to live with what was here, clutching and close to fumbling all we had-- it is so dull and gruesome how we die, unlike writing, life never finishes". - --Robert Lowell, "History" - ------- To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with the message: unsubscribe sycophant ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:28:21 -0700 From: Marc Tobolski Subject: RE: sycophant Re: MELLENCAMP/what song? I figured "concede" would get a rise... My point is this: FWIW, artist's co-opt their politics, image and positioning all the time. Is Dylan (bob, not Thomas) any less vital or his lyrics from the early 60's any less relevant or telling because now his services can be bought by major corporations for private concerts? Does this diminish his appearance at Concert for Bangla Desh? Because JM supports, and at times leads, Farm Aid, does that mean he cares any less for the cause because Joe Farmer can't afford to go to his shows? Does he care if Joe Farmer even buys his CD's? Probably not. Does JM sell any more CD's because of his involvement? Probably a minimal amount. His selling to the farmer days have been over since shortly after "Scarecrow". He has chosen to give to them in a different way; not by giving low-cost shows that Joe Farmer can attend, but by providing a high profile forum to broadcast their situation. And save a few family farms in the process. JM does what he wants to do as an artist and as a human being (I suspect). Don't confuse causes with the art. If he sang about nothing but the farmer's plight, he'd be down that same career path as Springsteen. And we know how relevant (musically and otherwise) he's been lately. The real debate should be whether it is relevant for JM to tour at all. His set list is about as imaginative as The Beach Boys. All old hits, no surprises. And that is a rip-off to the fans, no matter what he decides to charge for tickets. Marc Visit me at CubeCam! http://www.CableOne.net/tobolski/ - -----Original Message----- From: Rob Hermann, Wash U, History [SMTP:rhermann@artsci.wustl.edu] Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 1998 10:01 AM To: 'sycophant@smoe.org' Subject: RE: sycophant Re: MELLENCAMP/what song? Well, just to draw this out one more time... I haven't conceded anything. I think the comparison between JM and Van Gogh (laughable as it is) doesn't work for this argument, if only because the two artists work in two different media, and Van Gogh sells for 65 million dollars _today_ for a whole host of reasons that have little, if anything, to do with his art. Maybe in 150 years when there are three JM CDs left in the world, each one will sell for 65 million dollars. Plus, Van Gogh sells for 65 million dollars for reasons far beyond his control, while JM chooses (for the most part) how much his tickets will cost. And I think, Mark, you're choosing to ignore the thrust of my criticism, which is simply this: after JM took control of his recording career in the early 1980s, he began to represent himself as the champion of the heartland farmer. Now, I'm not taking issue with this stance; the heartland farmers are a worthy cause. What I am taking issue with is the contradiction inherent in the adoption of that stance and his decision a decade later to charge truly exorbitant ticket prices. If he is a capitalist, well and good. I truly don't care. I'll still listen to Human Wheels, since it is a good album. All I'm saying is that it is a trifle bizarre for someone to portray themselves as the hero of the lower and underclasses (watch the Paper in Fire video closely) and then ensure that those same people can't see his shows. I apologize for misrepresenting your argument about bluegrass and country. But even before the Lonesome Jubilee, Tom Petty had been making similar moves since at least his 1980 release, Hard Promises. Finally, "why the hell did I watch those videos"? Well...if you grow up in backwater, rural Louisiana, and you get cable for the first time, MTV becomes one of your only contacts with what you percieve to be the real world, out there somewhere. And John Mellencamp was all over MTV in the 80s, although he was hardly the only offender. - Robin Hermann Office: 935-7341 Department of History Home: 361-6634 Washington University email:rhermann@artsci.wustl.edu Web:www.artsci.wustl.edu/~rhermann - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- "History has to live with what was here, clutching and close to fumbling all we had-- it is so dull and gruesome how we die, unlike writing, life never finishes". - --Robert Lowell, "History" - ------- To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with the message: unsubscribe sycophant - ------- To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with the message: unsubscribe sycophant ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:15:29 -0500 (CDT) From: "Rob Hermann, Wash U, History" Subject: RE: sycophant Re: MELLENCAMP/what song? Marc, we might as well agree to disagree, before the Lisa-oriented members of this list kick us off. Although I take the point about Dylan, I think Bruce's The Ghost of Tom Joad was relevant, both musically and politically. But I will agree with you JM's set list. The Best That I Could Do, indeed. Robin Hermann Office: 935-7341 Department of History Home: 361-6634 Washington University email:rhermann@artsci.wustl.edu Web:www.artsci.wustl.edu/~rhermann - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- "History has to live with what was here, clutching and close to fumbling all we had-- it is so dull and gruesome how we die, unlike writing, life never finishes". - --Robert Lowell, "History" - ------- To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with the message: unsubscribe sycophant ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 98 11:24:00 PDT From: Avnet Subject: sycophant okay okay I really like that quote by Robert Lowell! We can learn so much about ourselves just by looking at the past actions of others, and so much more by discussing them with our peers. The tone is rather depressing, describing our deaths as ugly, but at the same time it gives me a spiritual view of life. Some people do die ugly dull deaths. At first I thought this quote was a comment on John Mellencamp and it's pretty insightful, especially relating to "Human Wheels", but now I see that you use it as a footer for all your mail. Speaking of males, maybe we should continue this discussion on the Mellencamp lists; I know it's all relating to Lisa, and music, and life and love and art, but I'm kind of tired of getting mail about Mellencamp when I subscribed to the Germano list. I only own Excerpts From Love Circus but when I got it, I obsessed over it for a month or two. How could you not? Her music is so inward and personal, the best way for me to relate to it is to dive right in. I can't remember the name of the song right now, but its the one where her voice quavers as she sings, "lies... liar!" Man... that hits me. I really don't want to be a liar. I know I have been in the past, lying right to a girlfriend's face. Ouych. See? That's what I like to see -- people talking about how the music affects them. Did you ever get the feeling that you know an artist's style well enough that you can appreciate whatever they create? Like there's some aspect of their personality that matches your own so well that you can see or hear it plainly. Maybe that's what makes a fan. - ------- To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with the message: unsubscribe sycophant ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:03:01 -0700 (PDT) From: bilbo hicks Subject: sycophant "Slide" Forgive me for mentioning Lisa Germano on this Mellencamp list, but her new album came out yesterday and it sounds really cool. Actually it sounds loud. At least its much louder than Love Circus. At first i was a little dismayed by it, but after listening to it non stop all day, i realized that the album is excellent. The only song i kind of don't like is "If i think of Love". I guess its because i love that song on the OP8 album and she changed it a little. Other than that this album rocks. My favorites would have to be Crash, Reptile and Wood Floors. I think heard or read someplace that this was her 'happy' record. I'm not sure if i agree with that, but i feel happy that its a great record. cheers _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com - ------- To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with the message: unsubscribe sycophant ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:54:36 EDT From: Venmlegion@aol.com Subject: Re: sycophant Re: MELLENCAMP/what song? Well cool for Fugazi. I hope they keep it up. I always loved Monor Threat, and all the Fugazi tunes I've heard I've like as well. Henry Rollins said once that he would never charge more than $5.00 for one of his shows. We all know that, as well as, he is a joke! It really does suck when bands like Fleetwood Mac, Kiss and the "Egos" I mean Eagles, charge ludicrous prices for their reunion shows. I must admit i am alittle dissapointed hearing about Mellencamp doing the same. As I said, the tickets here didnt seem to be that expensive, unless of course you bought them from "Scalper Land" - ------- To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with the message: unsubscribe sycophant ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 18:10:08 EDT From: Venmlegion@aol.com Subject: Re: sycophant Re: scalpers and such Thats all well and good. Im happy for that you that you got second rwo center. However your point about "these are better than anything that ever went on sale" Is just the point I was trying to make. It pisses me off that corporate radio stations and scalpers end up with the first 5 or more rows of seats. If you don't listen to brainwash 100.7 FM, or bend over to a scalper agency for tickets you get crap. Its very discouraging. -Brian - ------- To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with the message: unsubscribe sycophant ------------------------------ End of sycophant-digest V3 #64 ****************************** ======================================================================== Please send any questions or comments about the list to sycophant-owner@smoe.org