From: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org (alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest) To: ammf-digest@smoe.org Subject: alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V5 #55 Reply-To: ammf@fruvous.com Sender: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest Tuesday, February 20 2001 Volume 05 : Number 055 Today's Subjects: ----------------- fruvous at hockey game [limezinger@aol.complicates (sonic death monkey)] OT: Jian's rant [lightman@tmbg.IHATESPAME.org (Eric)] re: FruCon newbie says "Wow!" [CheesemonkeyGem ] Re: new ["Kate Leahy" ] Re: Jian's rant ["Kate Leahy" ] Re: Jian's rant [Todd Evans ] Re: OT: Jian's rant [Melanie ] Don't lose revenue 12248 [terminator227@hotmail.c] congrats to the FruCon IV committee ["the moxy woman" ] definitive opera house setlist :) [wakko@qwerty.bitey.net] Re: new [Katherine Maheux ] Re: OT: Jian's rant [platypus@pianosa.catch22.org (Jordan McClure)] Re: Not a real review! :p [Katherine Maheux ] Re: last night's concert ["A.J. LoCicero" ] Fruvous Playground [Joanne Desarno ] Re: Jian's rant [Chad Maloney ] Re: last night's concert [mike96@bluecrow.com (Mike Yoshioka)] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Feb 2001 06:38:48 GMT From: limezinger@aol.complicates (sonic death monkey) Subject: fruvous at hockey game while y'all are living it up in toronto.. some of us have lives to attend to at home. ;) ..and i just thought to post this.. tonight at the rochester americans game (tie, 2-2!) ... they played 'pisco' while the pee-wee league players came out to play during an intermission. hehe, that was awesome. that's all. sarah ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 06:32:44 GMT From: lightman@tmbg.IHATESPAME.org (Eric) Subject: OT: Jian's rant Hi everyone, I don't want to stir too much controversy, but I was just curious as to what people think about Jian's comdemnation of the bombing of Iraq. (I was not at FruCon, but numerous people have reported on it here.) I have the utmost respect for Jian as an artist, a writer, a thinker, and a person. However, I must take issue with some of his views. How can he possibly condemn the United States' attempt to maintain security? Sure, it is a shame that an innocent civilian might be incidentally killed -- but think how many innocent civilians Saddam Hussein is terrorizing! I hope that Jian does not think that there is a diplomatic solution to the Iraq problem, as it has been proven time and time again that there is no reasoning with the madman Saddam Hussein. Diplomacy is a great tool, but is no good when it simply turns into a policy of appeasement; Neville Chamberlain taught us this in 1939. I really don't want to cause an outrage here, but I think it's a good chance for us to have a down-to-earth, polite, intellectual conversation. - --Eric ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:01:38 -0800 (PST) From: CheesemonkeyGem Subject: re: FruCon newbie says "Wow!" Katherine Belyea wrote: >Ditto! No, wait, that would be cheating... >But I was at FruCon day, and it was incredible. >Everyone was so...nice! >I could just walk up and talk to anybody at all. uh huh, i felt that way too.... it got to the point where i didn't even waste time, i just said "I'm jen, who the hell are you :D!" But it went by so fast and i didn't get to meet nearly all the people i wanted to. Hello again to all i met and to those i didnt, drop me a fru message and say hi :) >Thanks to everybody involved for a great time, >especially all the new >people I met: Andy, Jen, Drea, Tom (or was it Todd?), >Angie (thanks for >the ride), Kelsey, the pair who practically drove me >home, and all the >droves of people whose names I've forgotten. Amazing >music, amazing >people. You rock too, Katherine! Glad to have met you and im glad you made it home safe and sound :) Luv jen (Cheesemonkey-Sucker-Whore-Wild Fiend-Blueshit-Queen) Meyers ===== ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* "Joey F. Jeremiah, at your services. That's 'F' for pharmacy!" ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:26:16 +0100 From: "Kate Leahy" Subject: Re: new Aaron, you're really going to have to calm down here. When the tapers have listened through their tapes and decided whether they'd want to rip them to MP3 at all (unlikely), you'll see it. And it probably won't be on Napster. A better idea. Wait patiently until someone makes a tape offer for the show or something. Then you'll be able to confirm absolutely that Mike was almost but not quite absolutely not talking about you :). - --Kate ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:45:37 +0100 From: "Kate Leahy" Subject: Re: Jian's rant Oh dear . . . everyone knows I can't resist this . . . Let's start, umm . . . here: SOMETHING JIAN CERTAINLY KNOWS THAT MOST PEOPLE DON'T (but that's okay . . . you have to be a real junkie to dig this stuff up): This is actually not new. The United States bombs Iraq at least every other day. No lie. Difference is, we haven't bombed the capital since the Gulf War. I wasn't at the show and didn't hear Jian's "rant," but from what I've gathered from others, it was more about the media coverage of the event than of the even itself. Okay, I'm going to start pasting from the original e-mail now' "How can he possibly condemn the United States' attempt to maintain security? Sure, it is a shame that an innocent civilian might be incidentally killed -- but think how many innocent civilians Saddam Hussein is terrorizing!" There are a few issues here. Firstly, the U.S. has done many immoral and unconscienable things in the name of "security." Pick up a book about the Nixon years for details. Actually, don't bother . . . we seem to be back to them. President Bush, in his habit of relying on history to make his decisions for him, has decided to honor the memory of Nixon and Kissinger's actions in Cambodia and use his executive discretion to drop bombs without informing Congress. The second thing is on innocent civilians. With the current technology available, there's really no reason that innocent life should be jeopardized in any way. In fact, your second statement seems to contradict this -- in one explicit and one implicit way. Expicitly in that you brush off the U.S.' taking of innocent life and demonize Hussein's (what's a few lives when you're trying to keep your country together?) and implicitly in that if anyone is terrorizing innocent Iraqis . . . it's the United States. For more information here, type "Iraqi sanctions" into any web browser and start reading. A little bit here, though . . . Madeline Albright, in an interview with 60 Minutes, noted that the estimated half-million Iraqi children who die every year as a result of the sanctions imposed on Iraq with the help of the U.S.'s Security Council veto is a reasonable price to pay. For a measure that's wholly ineffective? Honestly, at this point, terrorizing civilians in Iraq is the only thing the U.S. is good at as far as its Middle East policy goes. Then we come into the issue of just war theory, the immorality of zero-casualty air war . . . the list goes on. "I hope that Jian does not think that there is a diplomatic solution to the Iraq problem, as it has been proven time and time again that there is no reasoning with the madman Saddam Hussein. Diplomacy is a great tool, but is no good when it simply turns into a policy of appeasement; Neville Chamberlain taught us this in 1939." Perhaps there's not an immediate diplomatic solution to the problem . . . but this action wasn't a good answer. It gave an Iraqi population another reason to rally behind the corrupt government which oppresses them. In fact, it's U.S. violence that Hussein leans on for support from his people. In my opinion, Bush didn't come close to exhausting his options on this one. The failure of Neville Chamberlain isn't the best example here . . . try the ambiguity surrounding the NATO air strikes on Kosovo. Richard Regan, in his "Just War: Conditions and Cases" notes (somewhere) that air strikes almost never advance political goals on the ground. Especially air strikes that target locations *outside* the no-fly zone Bush and Powell purported to be protecting. What the United States has essentially done here is alienate Congress in carrying out a questionably effective and desctructive policy that will only serve to strengthen the Iraqi government (if you read any of the news about the mass anti-American demonstrations in Baghdad). Jian has every right to criticize where he sees fit, and, well . . . this is fitting. - --Kate ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:23:23 GMT From: Todd Evans Subject: Re: Jian's rant I feel like I need to say a few words about this topic. First off, in my last post I was the one who unfortunately referred to Jian's comments about the Iraq bombing as a "rant." I want to assure everyone that I did not mean that in a negative way. I agree with Jian whole-heartedly and I thought that his comments were very touching and incredibly well spoken. The way Jian can articulate his passions so clearly while refusing to take any s**t from anyone is an inspiration to me. On the subject of the bombing, we Americans need to remember that the Iraqi people do not have the same value structure as we do. The fact that they are willing to risk their lives to maintain their loyalty to a kook like Saddam Hussein is something that may be hard for us to understand, but there is NOTHING we can do to change it. Believe me, I get frustrated when I see them burning posters of whoever our current president might be while THEIR leader is killing people perhaps daily, but our military strikes will only make Saddam more determined to fight us, and Iraqi citizens more determined to hate us. Todd (not intending to assume that we are all Americans here!) Kate Leahy wrote: > > Oh dear . . . everyone knows I can't resist this . . . > > Let's start, umm . . . here: > > SOMETHING JIAN CERTAINLY KNOWS THAT MOST PEOPLE DON'T (but that's okay . . . > you have to be a real junkie to dig this stuff up): This is actually not > new. The United States bombs Iraq at least every other day. No lie. > Difference is, we haven't bombed the capital since the Gulf War. I wasn't > at the show and didn't hear Jian's "rant," but from what I've gathered from > others, it was more about the media coverage of the event than of the even > itself. Okay, I'm going to start pasting from the original e-mail now' > > "How can he possibly condemn the United States' attempt to maintain > security? Sure, it is a shame that an innocent civilian might be > incidentally killed -- but think how many innocent civilians Saddam Hussein > is terrorizing!" > > There are a few issues here. Firstly, the U.S. has done many immoral and > unconscienable things in the name of "security." Pick up a book about the > Nixon years for details. Actually, don't bother . . . we seem to be back to > them. President Bush, in his habit of relying on history to make his > decisions for him, has decided to honor the memory of Nixon and Kissinger's > actions in Cambodia and use his executive discretion to drop bombs without > informing Congress. The second thing is on innocent civilians. With the > current technology available, there's really no reason that innocent life > should be jeopardized in any way. In fact, your second statement seems to > contradict this -- in one explicit and one implicit way. Expicitly in that > you brush off the U.S.' taking of innocent life and demonize Hussein's > (what's a few lives when you're trying to keep your country together?) and > implicitly in that if anyone is terrorizing innocent Iraqis . . . it's the > United States. For more information here, type "Iraqi sanctions" into any > web browser and start reading. A little bit here, though . . . Madeline > Albright, in an interview with 60 Minutes, noted that the estimated > half-million Iraqi children who die every year as a result of the sanctions > imposed on Iraq with the help of the U.S.'s Security Council veto is a > reasonable price to pay. For a measure that's wholly ineffective? > Honestly, at this point, terrorizing civilians in Iraq is the only thing the > U.S. is good at as far as its Middle East policy goes. Then we come into > the issue of just war theory, the immorality of zero-casualty air war . . . > the list goes on. > > "I hope that Jian does not think that there is a diplomatic solution to the > Iraq problem, as it has been proven time and time again that there is no > reasoning with the madman Saddam Hussein. Diplomacy is a great tool, but is > no good when it simply turns into a policy of appeasement; Neville > Chamberlain taught us this in 1939." > > Perhaps there's not an immediate diplomatic solution to the problem . . . > but this action wasn't a good answer. It gave an Iraqi population another > reason to rally behind the corrupt government which oppresses them. In > fact, it's U.S. violence that Hussein leans on for support from his people. > In my opinion, Bush didn't come close to exhausting his options on this one. > The failure of Neville Chamberlain isn't the best example here . . . try the > ambiguity surrounding the NATO air strikes on Kosovo. Richard Regan, in his > "Just War: Conditions and Cases" notes (somewhere) that air strikes almost > never advance political goals on the ground. Especially air strikes that > target locations *outside* the no-fly zone Bush and Powell purported to be > protecting. What the United States has essentially done here is alienate > Congress in carrying out a questionably effective and desctructive policy > that will only serve to strengthen the Iraqi government (if you read any of > the news about the mass anti-American demonstrations in Baghdad). > > Jian has every right to criticize where he sees fit, and, well . . . this is > fitting. > > --Kate ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:20:18 -0500 From: Melanie Subject: Re: OT: Jian's rant >>> Eric wrote: >>I don't want to stir too much controversy, but I was just curious as to what people think about Jian's comdemnation of the bombing of Iraq. (I was not at FruCon, but numerous people have reported on it here.)<< I also was not at FruCon, but in the past I've noticed that Jian, as a Canadian, can give us Americans a different perspective than the American press spins on any given issue. peace, melanie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 06:20:59 -0800 From: terminator227@hotmail.com Subject: Don't lose revenue 12248 Increase Your Bottom Line w/4 Powerful Words !!! We Accept Credit Cards !! Complete E-COMMERCE solutions to accept VISA, MasterCard, American Express, Discover and Checks for your website, online store, traditional storefront or home based business. 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Y'all deserve a gigantic pat on the back for all of the hard work you did to pull the Con off! best wishes and many thanks, Rachel B the moxy woman FREELANCE BROADCASTER ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:38:39 GMT From: lisa carpenter Subject: Re: Jian's rant Todd Evans wrote: > On the subject of the bombing, we Americans need to remember that the > Iraqi people do not have the same value structure as we do. The fact > that they are willing to risk their lives to maintain their loyalty to a > kook like Saddam Hussein is something that may be hard for us to > understand, but there is NOTHING we can do to change it. ok. i've been lurking for a long time, but just can't let this topic go without adding a few comments. look out, 'cause i just got back from a 43 hour bus ride and i'm a little cranky at the moment. now, maybe it's just that i'm an anthropology student, but when todd mentioned the value system of the Iraqi people something in me snapped. so they have a different value system, so what? does that mean they still don't fear for their children's lives? does that mean they don't have the right to sleep through the night without having to fear that a bomb will be dropped on them? and i don't care what kind of value system you ascribe to, but if someone is threatening to kill you and/or your family if you don't swear allegiance to the despotic military leader of your country, you usually do it. something that jian mentioned that really stuck in my mind was that if something like a bombing happens in the USA, one of the first things we hear about is the number of casualties and we get interviews with the victims families and profiles of their lives filling the "news". but when a major bombing happens in Iraq, no one really seems to care if lives and families were destroyed, as long as Saddam knows who's boss. tell me, who's value system is skewed, 'cause as a Canadian, i'm having some trouble discerning the bad guys in this one. blerg, i'm tired and i'm going to bed. please feel free to rip this post apart at your leisure. i know it's not all that together, but the basic ideas i wanted to get across are there. lis, brown eyed girl/snuggle queen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:42:45 GMT From: wakko@qwerty.bitey.net Subject: definitive opera house setlist :) Okay, according to my tape, here's how the set goes: Disc One: Set 1 01 - Michigan Militia 02 - Jockey Full Of Bourbon 03 - Horseshoes 04 - Fly 05 - My Poor Generation 06 - Lazy Boy 07 - You Will Go To The Moon 08 - Pisco Bandito 09 - Independence Day 10 - Boo Time 11 - Disco Video Bargainville 12 - BJ Don't Cry 13 - Iraq Discussion 14 - Stuck In The 90s 15 - Present Tense Tureen 16 - Johnny Saucep'n 17 - Guinea Pig 18 - The Kids' Song 19 - I Will Hold On 20 - Nuits De Reve 21 - My Baby Loves A Bunch Of Authors 22 - Get In The Car 23 - Psycho Killer Encore: 24 - King Of Spain [Intro] 25 - King Of Spain 26 - Green Eggs and Ham Encore 2: 27 - If Only You Knew 28 - Believe Encore 3: 29 - The Drinking Song The show ran just under 2:30 (and conveniently fits on 2 CDs, whee) and you could tell the guys were having a great time onstage after all that time off. When Mike did the little bit in GE&H the rest of them were cracking up for a good two minutes. I had a great time too; I'm guessing everyone who was there probably feels the same... - - A.P. - -- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:03:07 GMT From: Katherine Maheux Subject: Re: new Oh, Aaron, we're so sorry that in the past 48 hours no one has been able to comply to your request. You were so polite when you asked for it, too - - we practically *owe* you that mp3, don't we? Kath aaron wrote: > > can someone please post boo time from opera house of > napster!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - -- One day, the world stood still And we all sang one song Words came without any thought And we all sang so strongly The shy, they shouted too The deaf, all the chords they knew And the blind, they led me through The day the world stood still, The day we all stood still. -- Andy Stochansky ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:02:45 -0000 From: platypus@pianosa.catch22.org (Jordan McClure) Subject: Re: OT: Jian's rant In article <3a920f88$1_2@vienna7.his.com>, Eric wrote: >Hi everyone, > >I don't want to stir too much controversy, but I was just curious as to what >people think about Jian's comdemnation of the bombing of Iraq. (I was not at >FruCon, but numerous people have reported on it here.) Two comments here. First of all, I think Jian's "rant" as you call it was more focused on the media coverage of the bombing than the bombing itself. When civilians can be killed and the press doesn't stress or in some cases even report how many were injured and killed, that is a very scary thing. My other comment is on the US's general policy towards Hussein, which seems to be to just cut off all negotiations and issue sanctions, with the occasional bombing thrown in. The sanctions lower the standard of living and the bombings incite a sense of nationalism and unite the people behind a common enemy, in this case the U.S. I'm not a history expert, but I believe it was this sort of behavior that made it so easy for Hitler to unite Germany behind him. Aside from all that, a *major* point of concern here is that Bush bombed Iraq without so much as consulting most of the other major nations - many of them including France, Russia, and China, I believe, we against the bombing. You see the same sort of thing happening with the missile defense issue, except in that case, it is *every* other country against it. That lack of communication and utter disrespect for the wishes of other countries is a very, very dangerous thing. jordan - -- Jordan McClure (jordan@fnordia.com) http://fnordia.com - -- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:07:56 GMT From: Katherine Maheux Subject: Re: Not a real review! :p Jordan McClure wrote: > Yes - I quite enjoyed them and would describe it as pop music with 3 > or 4 part harmonies. This band also has a Fruvous connection in that > the lead singer either is or was in Tory Cassis' band. Technically, the Supers have two different lead singers: the bass player and the guy with the hat. The one you're talking about is Maury LaFoy, and he is still in Tory's band, he played with him on Sunday night (first time in a long time that Tory did his own music around here, I think). Maury is/was also a member of Starling (of ambiguous staying power at the moment) and plays keyboards occasionally for Danny Michel as part of The Wedding Band. The other guy is Graham. He... uh... he doesn't do much else. But he does sing lead on half the songs, so I thought I'd mention it. Kath, informationsicle. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:21:43 GMT From: "A.J. LoCicero" Subject: Re: last night's concert Erin Ireland wrote: > > Aaron boasted: > < "Drum set blarin', Hello Aaron" and while he siad that mike pointed to me. > my name being aaron, i assumed he meant me because i have spoken to him many > a time.>> > > and Erin replied: > <> > > then Aaron whined: > < me!!! And I have a strong aquaintance with him!>> > > and then Erin said: > Oh, please allow me to apologize! I didn't know that you had such a close > personal relationship with the dude... may I kiss your feet, Oh > Self-Appointed Important One? You guys are deaf. He said "Hello A.J." I mean what the hell else could he have said. I have his love child, and I know for a fact that I am the most important person in the world to him, after his wife and the guy who cuts his hair. A.J. (who thinks Aaron better close it, or else he may have to get sarcastic) - -- "Redefining the role of the United States from enablers to keep the peace to enablers to keep the peace from peacekeepers is going to be an assignment." - --G.W. Bush, Interview with the New York Times, Jan. 14, 2001 Email:aj@locicero.org ICQ: 13117113 AIM: locicero For some of the best Long Distance and Calling Card rates around visit http://www.ld.net/?sensible. Cheap rates and *I* get a commission! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:53:31 -0500 From: Joanne Desarno Subject: Fruvous Playground Is anyone else having problems with getting Fruvous Playground... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:19:31 -0500 From: Chad Maloney Subject: Re: Jian's rant lisa carpenter wrote: > > something that jian mentioned that really stuck in my mind was that if something > like a bombing happens in the USA, one of the first things we hear about is the > number of casualties and we get interviews with the victims families and profiles > of their lives filling the "news". but when a major bombing happens in Iraq, no > one really seems to care if lives and families were destroyed, as long as Saddam > knows who's boss. tell me, who's value system is skewed, 'cause as a Canadian, i'm > having some trouble discerning the bad guys in this one. That was the content of his rant more or less. But really, don't you see that it's about two completely separate things? The actual physical bombing and the media's handling of the event. Jian ranted about how you never hear about the people, only the part of the strategic plan the bombing accomplishes. This is true, but it's an entirely separate issue from the bombing itself. Condemn the media for their inhumane reporting. To me, Jian muttered things about being anti-bombing but then railed on the media and their reporting of it. In a small way, he's doing the same thing as the media. Maybe fixing the media is the first step towards the heads of government being accountable on a personal level for the deeds they do? Say that if that's what you mean though because it isn't a trivial leap to assume that's what you mean. As fans of a band and conscientous people who don't just see what the attractive man says on stage and repeat it, we understand that the attrocity of bombing and loss of life is separate from the media stance taken by news media. Or at least I hope we do. I know Jian goes off the cuff about things and pretty much improvises his beliefs in front of us. He has the stage prescence to come off very knowledgeable, but I think he would have a better impact on impartial people if he structured his ramblings a bit more. I guess he's there to put on a show though first and foremost and did that well. - Chad ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:21:49 GMT From: mike96@bluecrow.com (Mike Yoshioka) Subject: Re: last night's concert On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:21:43 GMT, "A.J. LoCicero" wrote: Sorry everyone, but I checked the tape, and he said "Hello " The magical part of that is that whoever listens to it, hears their own name. And it looks like he's pointing at everyone. Oh, and his eyes follow you wherever you are in the room. It's just creepy. Mike ------------------------------ End of alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V5 #55 *******************************************