From: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org (alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest) To: ammf-digest@smoe.org Subject: alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V4 #331 Reply-To: ammf@fruvous.com Sender: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest Wednesday, August 2 2000 Volume 04 : Number 331 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: question (was ghosts of fruvous etc) [SugarFly26@aol.com] Re: question (was ghosts of fruvous etc) [Rebekkah Kerner ] Re: Interesting article - "Syracuse New Times" [Ellen ] Re: cute fru moment ["Chris K @*_*@" ] Grape Jam (on a lighter note) [moxyone22@aol.com (MoxyOne22)] Re: Midwestern Shows? [Frances Meale ] Re: Ghosts of Fruvous; obsessions [fruvy ] Was re: midwestern shows, now OT: eyes [Rachel R Beck ] Re: Ghosts of Fruvous; obsessions [lawrence solomon ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 16:47:03 EDT From: SugarFly26@aol.com Subject: Re: question (was ghosts of fruvous etc) Why don't you all have dinner together? :) - --------> Ln ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 14:29:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Rebekkah Kerner Subject: Re: question (was ghosts of fruvous etc) > Unfortunately, I don't know Sally, but I still think > this IS a community and a damned fine one. So is > ANYONE available to have dinner with ME on the 3rd? > :-) > > melanie Yeah, community! I don't know you at all, but I'd be happy to have dinner with you. If we're in the same state.... or else we could just have dinner at the same time, and reflect on it later. How does Indian food sound? :-D - -Rebekkah (a newbie who guarantees that she doesn't yet have any dinner plans with band mambers.) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 13:59:48 -0500 From: Chad Maloney Subject: I see dead people (was Ghosts of Fruvous Obsession or something like that) (LONG) Ok, people. You want it, you got it. Here's my honest motivation in all this crap, distilled a bit to filter out things I believe that you don't want to hear. There are 2 driving idea behind my part in all this. 1) Take your personal sob stories and dissertations on your own mental well being to your friends, please 2) Get real. Perceiving a close personal friendship between you and a member of Moxy Fruvous is going to hurt you and them I will delve into those 2 point later on. When I posted my original response to Sally who responsed to Gella and picked out one sentence of a long diatribe, I had those two points in mind above. I didn't touch #1 in anything I wrote on this subject. I took the facetious approach, which probably isn't the nicest in the world. Instead of commenting on it, I crossed that line with Gella and responded like I would to someone who I care about and who is my friend. I apologize that Gella is not someone I deeply care about and who is my friend. I don't want to see bad things happen to her or anything, but I don't know her at all. The second point was what I addressed directly in my posts. Point number one: Taking your personal sob stories and dissertations on your own mental being are not appropriate for this newsgroup. I don't know how many people subscribed to this group. I have been an active poster here for over 3 years now. I have seen people come and go. I have seen the newsgroup be totally Fruvous focused and I've seen it be totally off topic. I've seen people complain about signal to noise ratio and I've seen people praise the off topicness as a bond holding the community together. Personal things are not something to be talking about on this group. The band's personal lives are not appropriate here. Take them to your drooly private emails when you think Jian has a nice package in those tight jeans. I don't want to hear it. Your own personal life, however fruvous related it may be, is not appropriate here. Take your personal problems to the people you trust and the people whose input and sympathy will help you work through them. Bringing your problems and sob stories to 2000 people is not appropriate. 1500 of those people could care less, 450 of those people will feel bad for you and do nothing about it, 40 of those people will shoot you a "Oh, stay strong! You're a wonderful person!" cheesy email, and 10 of those people are actually people you trust and respect and may try to help you. Do us all a favor and send to those 10 people in the first place. And if you DO in fact bring your personal life to the newsgroup, realize that you just made something extremely public. You just tacked your diary page up on the school bulliten board. If people respond, you need to be prepared for it. Given 2000 people, not everyone is going to respond the way you want and the way you think you need them to respond. It isn't going to happen. I'm sorry, but it isn't. Even if it did, what does sympathy from some no name Fruvous fan you've never met mean to you? A little bit of a self-esteem boost? Wooha! If you truly need help, go to your friends. The people you trust and that you know care about you. I'm sorry if you believe all 2000 people of alt.music.moxy-fruvous are your support net. They aren't. [The numbers above are made up. The word "you" is not intended be aimed at any one person, but rather the set of people who themselves believe the above] Point number two: Get real. Perceiving a close personal friendship between you and a member of Moxy Fruvous is going to hurt you and them in the long run. First, I'm not saying that no one that reads this newsgroup is a personal friend of the band. That's something between you and whomever you consider your friend. But if you do, don't use that situation for status in this newsgroup. That is a terrible thing to do, using your friendship that way. If you are truly friends with someone, you will treat them with respect. You won't go posting in a public place when you have a problem with them, you will talk to them or maybe a mutual friend to figure out what to do. There is a very very thin line the band walks with us, the fans. That line makes their lives immeasurably hard because when something they do doesn't live up to the masses expectations, the masses have access to come and complain. Being buddy-buddy with us, the fans, makes them terribly vulnerable to us. But in the same way, it makes us very loyal because they have entrusted us with it anyway. They know we can hurt them very easily because they are open to us, yet they do it anyways. And that is one of the things that has helped them draw and keep loyal fans over the years. Many fans' connections with the band goes beyond seeing a concert a year and buying a CD every two years. But this line that they cross or that we cross is hurting both of us immensely. When the band wants to slow down touring or take some time off, people lament over not seeing shows or hearing new material. And what's worse, these aren't faceless fans. These are people the band knows by name and face that are being insupportive of their choices. Whenever a decision is made, FDC will contain it. The newsgroup will erupt talking about it. There will be personal email groups talking about it. IRC will talk about it. Be it a new song, or the track listing from the new album or whatnot. I'm sure this is completely fucking scary to the band. But still they allow us to be intimate with them unlike many other groups. They perform songs before even the band themselves are ready to decide whether they are permanent songs or not. They ask us opinions and take our say after each and every show. At some point along the way, what if they want to take it back? Don't you think after 10 years of something, it gets tiring coming out and greeting fans? Yeah, 5 years ago it was 10 fans sticking around. 3 years ago it was 30. Now it's 100 people. 250 days a year there are 100 different people who feel privelleged enough to be involved in the Fruvous machine. The band created those monsters, those people that way. The band built it's success on that early and always and the band's success hinges on that connection. But don't you think it gets tiring doing that? But there's no way to take it back without hurting people. People you have let in and be a part of the process treasure that like nothing else. Taking it away would hurt them a lot. So some of us see this, and we try our damndest to keep that line between us a little more solid. To inject a bit of realism into this whole freakin' mess so that when something happens, people aren't going to get hurt as much. I fucking want this damn band to have room to maneuver around and make choices without harming it's fanbase, but because of momentum and years of allowing the fans to be involved in things, it isn't going to happen. If a major change happens, people are going to be hurt. They aren't going to understand and everyone is going to suffer. What are you all going to do when this ends? All you people who believe the band members are your friend, what are you going to do when the last Moxy Fruvous show happens and you never again see any of your "friends"? You'll be hurt because this closeness that you've felt the last 3 years of seeing them and being a part of the process is cut off and you had nothing to do with that part of the process! And you know what? The band will be hurt because they know that people will feel that way, but there is nothing they can do about it. Believe me, you should know when someone from the band is your friend. The more you force yourself to cross that line more without them will just lead to both sides getting hurt. Please get real and realize that this, in addition to being a huge trust excercise, is 4 men's livlihood. Part of that is making every one of us feel a part of the show, a part of Moxy Fruvous. But we aren't equal member parts. They respect us and we respect them, but when it comes down to it, they are in charge. What they decide stands and we need to respect it, to give our input if the chance arises, but don't take for granted the access we have and don't make that access mean more than it is. Doing that is going to hurt everyone involved. - Chad [1] [1] Wow, I just wrote a really long post with no footnotes ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 18:16:36 -0400 From: Paul Mischler Subject: Re: Midwestern Shows? Actually, FDC is more up to date in general than any of us are. Especially with Jude having left Fruvous Headquarters, I haven't really seen ANY newsgroup postings from the HQ... (hmm... seems like a call to JAM Entertainment is in order.) But I'd recommend you keep your eyes on FDC because those tour dates get updated straight from the horses mouth (so to speak.) - -Paul Mischler - -remove the obvious from my e-mail address to reply personally. John Kelly wrote: > I was hoping that the folks on the fruvous NG would have the up-and-up > on fru-touring plans, perhaps even before FDC(which I do frequent) could > post it. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 21:41:35 GMT From: fruomffan@diganet.com (Cara Kozack) Subject: Re: What to play to a non-fruvophile? SugarFly26@aol.com wrote in : >For my friends, I've tried different things. I played King of Spain for my >friend Aaron a few times, and then when my best friend and I had another >friend back out of a concert last minute, we took Aaron. I think he might >be slowly converting, but alas he still loves Britney Spears and >Backstreet Boys. ::sigh:: For my friend Sarah, who would look at me like >I'm insane if I played King of Spain for her first, I did Half as Much and >things from Thornhill that sound "band-like" and then worked to >Bargainville for GWS, and then Live Noise Drinking Song. She's kinda >getting into them I think. She did ask me to make her a tape..so now I >gotta figure out what to put on it. Like someone said, I think it depends >on the person. True, a lot of my friends like country, so I played some of the slower love songs with acoustic guitar in the background like Fly and I Will Hold On. Still haven't had any success...they still all think of the band as just some strange music that Cara listens to, that is WAY too politically left. Just because I mentioned them once or twice in Social class...Oh well, I don't think I'll play YNB, GMIA, or GWS to convert them anytime soon. Only 9 more days till my first Fru concert ever!! - -- Cara Kozack It's a reference to a _____ that you've never even heard of by\in\on a _____ that you probably don't even like! fruomffan@diganet.com www.crosswinds.net/~fruomffan ICQ: 56416421 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 22:09:38 GMT From: Shilfiell Subject: Re: Ghosts of Fruvous; obsessions In article <03a406f0.b2d24390@usw-ex0105-037.remarq.com>, Ellen wrote: > actually, the feeling of being blown off implies that you > expected something different. she didn't say she was sad that > jian hadn't had time to stay and talk to her. she said he'd > blown her off. also, reacting with a "hmph" (as sally did) > implies that something different was expected. I don't know if I've ever seen anyone write out the word "hmph" and mean it seriously. I generally take it as tongue-in-cheek when I see it online. It's always been difficult to figure out the true meaning of text messages without the visual cues: that's why it's important to think before you post, or react to something posted. > > but the real issue here is that neither of these reactions were > really fair to jian and thus shouldn't have been discussed > online in front of thousands of people. Likewise, the reaction to Gella. When it comes down to defending the honor of a bandmember vs. defending someone who's nice to me WITHOUT me buying their product, well, I'll side with the non-pro nice guy every time unless they're blatantly wrong. - -kimberly - -mostly harmless ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 07:25:10 -0700 From: Ellen Subject: Re: Interesting article - "Syracuse New Times" does anyone know what this means? (pasted from the article) >Their latest work, The C Album (Consolidated Fruvous) does it say that somewhere on C? and wtf does it mean? peace, ellen - ----------------------------------------------------------- Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 18:31:45 -0400 From: loren becker Subject: Re: Midwestern Shows? Paul Mischler wrote: > Actually, FDC is more up to date in general than any of us are. Especially with > Jude having left Fruvous Headquarters, I haven't really seen ANY newsgroup > postings from the HQ... (hmm... seems like a call to JAM Entertainment is in > order.) I'm not sure calling JAM would do you much good on this front. I believe Jack's current assistant is Barb, over at the Agency Group. Unfortunately for us, i don't believe that Barb is a Fruvous employee so her priorities are somewhat different than Jude's are and sending out itineraries to the fans doesn't appear to be high on the list. As for gigs in the Midwest, I wouldn't count on anything between now and the hiatus, but it never hurts to keep your eyes peeled. /l ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 22:38:57 GMT From: "Chris K @*_*@" Subject: Re: cute fru moment Lori Martin wrote: > In what seems to be my favourite thread today, Super Dave wrote: > > > >Much.") And no, I don't live anywhere where WXPN is. > > Is this a Canadian radio station? > > No No NO!!!!! Public Radio From The University Of > Pennsylvania!!!(or, the best radio station in North America, > according to Mike Ford.) *snip* Yea, Canadian radio stations usually start with a "C": like CFNY, CKEY and CLUV. ;) "Tim?" "Troy?" Christine. *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* - --Diet soda? - --No thanks. FREAKED!!!! - --Fiddle Faddle? Elijah to Ricky - --Alright...delicious. 1993 *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* ------------------------------ Date: 02 Aug 2000 23:23:12 GMT From: moxyone22@aol.com (MoxyOne22) Subject: Grape Jam (on a lighter note) Well, it's confirmed... I got my VIP pass for Grape Jam today, and I also found out Yolk will be playing too!!! Gosh, the first time I saw them was 5 years ago at a fraternity party... memories. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 19:14:00 -0400 From: Frances Meale Subject: Re: Midwestern Shows? You may want to try Pollstar.com as well. They even email the tour updates to you directly. It has been my experience that Pollstar has been pretty current with Fruvous concert updates. I hope this helps. Frances =) Paul Mischler wrote: > Actually, FDC is more up to date in general than any of us are. Especially with > Jude having left Fruvous Headquarters, I haven't really seen ANY newsgroup > postings from the HQ... (hmm... seems like a call to JAM Entertainment is in > order.) > > But I'd recommend you keep your eyes on FDC because those tour dates get updated > straight from the horses mouth (so to speak.) > > -Paul Mischler > -remove the obvious from my e-mail address to reply personally. > > John Kelly wrote: > > > I was hoping that the folks on the fruvous NG would have the up-and-up > > on fru-touring plans, perhaps even before FDC(which I do frequent) could > > post it. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 16:26:47 -0700 From: fruvy Subject: Re: Ghosts of Fruvous; obsessions Kimberly wrote: >I don't know if I've ever seen anyone write out the word "hmph" >and mean it seriously. I generally take it as tongue-in-cheek >when I see it online. heehee, thanks Kimberly....That's exactly how I wanted it to be taken ;) I mean, there are a million *other* four letter words I could've typed in the place of that "hmph" had I really been upset. I wasn't angry so I spared you all the vulgarities...If I was really incensed about something that happened over a month ago, what sense would it make to take it up with a bunch of people who really can't do anything about it? It was all just to show Gella some sympathy. I'm glad this seems to be simmering down now and that shortly we can return to our regularly scheduled banter. retreating with tongue-in-cheek, sally :) - ----------------------------------------------------------- Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 16:38:40 -0700 From: fruvy Subject: Re: question (was ghosts of fruvous etc) Because of an AP English reading list that makes me hate the written word, I'm free after the 11th of this month for karaoke bar singing or bar table dancing and seeing a few male strippers if anyone would care to join.....Oh wait. I might be working by then, nevermind...I'll just sit and listen to the stories of what i missed. eagerly, Sally - ----------------------------------------------------------- Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 23:43:23 GMT From: "Chris K @*_*@" Subject: Re: Ghosts of Fruvous; obsessions lawrence solomon wrote: *snip* > Ellen wrote: > > > > you shouldn't have to feel eternally grateful for any scrap of > > attention a band member gives you, because you shouldn't be > > needing it that much. do you see that? > > why not? are people not allowed to take pleasure > and find comfort in the > things they enjoy? can someone not feel eternally > grateful for something that > someone did above and beyond the call of duty? Paying attention to you at a show is not something that is above and beyond the call of duty? Giving someone a ride home because their car was stolen at a Fruvous show and stranded without any means of transportation and the people who are giving you the ride, live out of the way than the way you were originally travelling, is above and beyond the call of duty.[1] Having a band member say "Hey , how are you doing?" doesn't qualify as that. > > and you shouldn't be expecting it, either. it's not fair to the > > band you love so dearly to expect that kind of devotion from > > them. > > and I don't think anyone is expecting it. read Gella's post > carefully and see > that she, herself, thinks it's an unhealthy obsession. > she freely admits that > she relies on Früvous too heavily - not necessarily > the guys personally, but > the band, the shows, and the experiences, good or bad. *snipped a comment that I found unnecessary in the original post* > she's recounting her memory of meeting the guys at the > show, not complaining > that Jian didn't give her the time of day. what he did was > "part of the experience." Why is it that Fruvous is the only concert where people seem to focus on the "experience" of the show? Isn't seeing them perform enough for you? What if the band doesn't come out afterwards? Does that make the show worse? At my first show, I had no clue to stay afterwards to get my CDs signed or talk to the band etc. I went to the show, had a great time and left after the encore when the lights came up. The next time a show was close by, I wanted to go. If I never met the band at all after any of the shows, it wouldn't make any difference to me because I saw them perform. That's what I was originally there for. (until the Fruheads I wanted to see became more important than seeing the band, but that's different post.) It's a nice touch for them to do that - but you shouldn't expect it after every show. Is that the only thing you look for in a show? I laugh and/or cringe when the same people seem to chase (and yes, please take that term literally) after the band at every show they attend to talk to them or I hear people say frequently that "He was so surprised to see me at the show!!!" On the part of the band, that meet and greet thing must get tiring all the time. :\ *slight snip* > > and if this criticism is enough to stop you from posting here, > > then perhaps it's better that you do, at least for a while. > > until you get some perspective. > > excuse me, but that is just way out of line. > condescending and rude, telling > someone to "get some perspective." I think you owe Gella an apology. No she doesn't. Ellen hit the nail right on the head. She's saying "Maybe you just better stop, take a step back and start thinking exactly what you're doing." In no way does that look to be rude and/or condescending - it's "telling it like it is." Some people can't take a hint, so you have to spell it out for them. Why would you post your innermost thoughts on a public forum that is seen by thousands of people who have no clue who you are and don't really care? Isn't that what "diaryland.com"[2] is for? Christine. [1] Yes, a car was stolen at a Fruvous show in 1998 and no, not one of the band members offered a ride. Hmmm...how *rude* is that?! [2] I almost typed "dairyland.com" but that would be a totally different forum. ;) *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* - --Diet soda? - --No thanks. FREAKED!!!! - --Fiddle Faddle? Elijah to Ricky - --Alright...delicious. 1993 *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 20:35:30 -0400 From: Rachel R Beck Subject: Was re: midwestern shows, now OT: eyes Loren Becker wrote: it never hurts to keep your eyes peeled Ouch! speak for yourself. :) - -Rachel ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 21:08:05 -0400 From: Lori Martin Subject: Re: Ghosts of Fruvous; obsessions Donna wrote: > Lori Martin wrote: > > Well I'm just serving notice now that I'm blowing off dinner with > > ALL of you, and Donna too, > OK, um... why don't I get to be part of the aggregate, here? Why are you > specifically blowing *me* off? Because you're something new and special in this fast-growing dining-out-with-someone-on-Sept.-3 fragment of The AMMF Community (tm) (or non-community) (hey, I can never make up my mind). You required a Special Mention, see? > *sniff* Not to sniffle, darling. We'll do brunch! > >for a quiet evening of dinner and Wu-Tang with Murray. > Well, start practicin', baby. That man is brutal. Yeah, he is. Being God just isn't a job for wimps. - -- Lori ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 00:06:15 GMT From: "Chris K @*_*@" Subject: Re: Ghosts of Fruvous; obsessions Chris K @*_*@ (which is me) wrote: > Paying attention to you at a show is not something that is above and > beyond the call of duty? Giving someone a ride home because their car > was stolen at a Fruvous show and stranded without any means of > transportation and the people who are giving you the ride, live out of > the way than the way you were originally travelling, > is above and beyond > the call of duty.[1] Having a band member say "Hey here>, how are you doing?" doesn't qualify as that. If you could, please scroll up and subtract the "?" after the first sentence. It should be a statement and not a question. I forgot to edit that part out. Sorry for the inconvenience (and I'm sure I caused some for someone out there.) Christine. *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* - --Diet soda? - --No thanks. FREAKED!!!! - --Fiddle Faddle? Elijah to Ricky - --Alright...delicious. 1993 *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 21:20:41 -0400 From: lawrence solomon Subject: Re: Ghosts of Fruvous; obsessions "Chris K @*_*@" wrote: > Paying attention to you at a show is not something that is above and > beyond the call of duty? Giving someone a ride home because their car > was stolen at a Fruvous show and stranded without any means of > transportation and the people who are giving you the ride, live out of > the way than the way you were originally travelling, is above and beyond > the call of duty.[1] Having a band member say "Hey here>, how are you doing?" doesn't qualify as that. anything beyond performing is above and beyond the call of duty, really. they get paid to go there, put on a show, and then they can do whatever they want. so if they hang out, it's a bonus. if they talk to *you*, specifically, it's even more of a bonus for you. they're making an effort they don't have to make. > Why is it that Fruvous is the only concert where people seem to focus on > the "experience" of the show? Isn't seeing them perform enough for you? > What if the band doesn't come out afterwards? Does that make the show > worse? At my first show, I had no clue to stay afterwards to get my CDs > signed or talk to the band etc. I went to the show, had a great time and > left after the encore when the lights came up. The next time a show was > close by, I wanted to go. If I never met the band at all after any of > the shows, it wouldn't make any difference to me because I saw them > perform. That's what I was originally there for. (until the Fruheads I > wanted to see became more important than seeing the band, but that's > different post.) it's not. everything that happens is part of someone's memory. and that's all that was being posted - someone's memory of a show, saying they'll miss all that. the experience of going to a show. if, for you, that's just seeing the show, fine. But don't deny others what they include. That's just selfish. > It's a nice touch for them to do that - but you shouldn't expect it > after every show. Is that the only thing you look for in a show? I > laugh and/or cringe when the same people seem to chase (and yes, please > take that term literally) after the band at every show they attend to > talk to them or I hear people say frequently that "He was so surprised > to see me at the show!!!" On the part of the band, that meet and greet > thing must get tiring all the time. :\ see, this is where newsgroups and mailing lists get into trouble. when people start responding to things that no one said. everyone here has, so far, agreed that this behaviour is not to be expected of them, but is cool when it happens. so I have no idea what you're responding to here, other than maybe to just rant about something you don't like. > Why would you post your innermost thoughts on a public forum that is > seen by thousands of people who have no clue who you are and don't > really care? Isn't that what "diaryland.com"[2] is for? why not? some people are very open about their lives. if you don't like it, you can ignore it. ------------------------------ End of alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V4 #331 ********************************************