From: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org (alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest) To: ammf-digest@smoe.org Subject: alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V3 #901 Reply-To: ammf@fruvous.com Sender: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest Wednesday, October 20 1999 Volume 03 : Number 901 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: One more thing about fake IDs ["A.J. LoCicero" ] Re: Collingswood Show [Ellen ] RE: alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V3 #900 [Kristy Thompson ] Re: One more thing about fake IDs [Veronica J Gruneberg <6vjg@qlink.queen] Garage Sales are a thing of the past! ["john" ] Re: Fake ID's, Club hours, etc. [srm9988n@aol.comicrelief (Lori at fruhea] addendum to my last post (was: Re: Fake ID's, Club hours, etc. [srm9988n@] Re: Fake ID's, Club hours, etc. ["A.J. LoCicero" ] Re: One more thing about fake IDs [lawrence solomon ] Re: Fake ID's, Club hours, etc. [srm9988n@aol.comicrelief (Lori at fruhea] Re: that bowery show... ["^kat^" ] Re: One more thing about fake IDs ["Kate Leahy" ] Lyrical Accuracy [Melanie ] Conan Tape [kelkelsl@aol.com (KelKelSL)] Re: *itinerary* [jf ] Re: that bowery show... [vika@attglobal.net (Vika Zafrin)] Re: One more thing about fake IDs [vika@attglobal.net (Vika Zafrin)] Suggestion for those who oppose age restrictions [Amanda Wilson ] Re: Fake ID needed : ) [Josh Drury ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 20:04:10 GMT From: "A.J. LoCicero" Subject: Re: One more thing about fake IDs lawrence solomon wrote: > *I'm* a loss for the club.... Right but you are unusual. > And what's the point of being in business if the customers aren't satisfied? But most of them are. That is the point here. All of us with our concerns about the "rights" of people under 21 are a TINY minority in this rather conservative and puritanical country of ours. The vast majority of people are very satisfied with the status quo. That is why it IS the status quo in this case. We are certainly NOT dealing here with special interests hijacking the democratic process because the special interests (i.e.. bars and brewers etc.) would rather be able to sell their wares to everyone. They are prevented from this by an overwhelming attitude in American society. That is an attitude that only a very few of us in this country can see past at the moment. > The top three priorities, in order, for any business should be: customer > satisfaction, employee satisfaction, profit. And unfortunately, the top three > priorities, in order, for most actual business are: profit, profit, profit. Under the capitalist system the goal of customer satisfaction is theoretically driven by the goal of profit. Sometimes that works really well, sometimes not at all. :\ A.J. - -- _____ _ / ____(_) | | _ ___ ___ _ __ ___ | | | |/ __/ _ \ '__/ _ \ | |____| | (_| __/ | | (_) | \_____|_|\___\___|_| \___/ @wwnet.com ICQ#: 13117113 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:27:38 GMT From: Ellen Subject: Re: Collingswood Show In article <7ukret$d7q$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, gingee@my-deja.com wrote: > Not necessarily defending the higher pricing, but the shows at > the Keswick and Scottish Rite mark the band's transition from smaller, > general admission venues in which most everyone has to stand for a > couple hours to theatres with assigned seating and actual seats. Also, > at least in the case of the Keswick (I haven't been to the S.R. yet), > the theatre has much better sound and sight quality than previous area > venues such as the TLA or the dreadful Trocadero in Phila. It stands > to reason that better quality venues have higher overhead, and > therefore we pay higher ticket prices. > That's progress for ya! Logical-sounding enough, but not really true in this area. There are a lot of venues that Fruvous has been playing for a couple of years already that have superior sound, assigned seats, and good sight lines. But they're small. And ticket prices are not $25. One example is the Ramshead in Annapolis; it seats about 250. I know tix were $16 last year; I don't remember how much they were this year (yes, that's how my brain works). The Birchmere in Alexandria is similar, but a little bigger and seats are first come, first served. My guess is the *bigger* shows they play in the area (in and around DC) are going to be the GA, SRO shows (the bar shows, IOW), and the smaller theaters are going to be phased out. The Vault holds about 400; the 9:30 about 1200. And they're going to be cheaper, too, because in a venue like the 9:30 club, Fruvous is not as well-known and loved yet. They're going to have to do a little more proving themselves to that crowd before they can charge $25 (which, btw, is about how much you can see Ben Folds Five for next week) for a concert at the 9:30. peace, ellen (you can also see Phil Lesh and Friends for a few bucks more in November at the Baltimore arena =) *************************************** Requesting some enlightenment... Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 20:24:40 GMT From: Kristy Thompson Subject: RE: alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V3 #900 Veronica wrote: > On an unrelated note, my aunt and uncle had a baby boy > last night. no name yet, but it makes me very happy! :) Happy news indeed!!! Might we suggest Dave? or Mike? or Murray? Or Jian? ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Kristy Thompson Portland, OR kristy@fruhead.com ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 20:30:33 GMT From: "Vokes, Laurie" Subject: Fake ID's, Club hours, etc. Ok, I wanted to stay out of this but I can't any longer... Being much older than 21, I totally disagree with Kathleen. I have met many people under 21 and under 18 who act older than many of the people I have seen in bars/clubs. So I agree with Lawrence that age is arbitrary, you can put a group of people togeather of exactly the same age and they will have completely different levels of maturity. - -----Original Message----- From: Kathleen Cain To: ammf@fruvous.com Sent: 10/20/99 1:44 PM Subject: Fake ID's, Club hours, etc. Lawrence said: "If you feel that there is no difference between those two days, then what is the difference between someone who is 20 and 364 days old vs. someone who is 20 and 363 days old? And so on. Funny, I've just proved all ages to be equivalent by induction.... :) One day cannot make a difference, but where is the cutoff? Sounds arbitrary to me..." Of course it sounds arbitrary to you. You are still too young to understand the difference a year or even a few months can make to a person's maturity and sense of responsibility. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Oct 1999 19:58:48 GMT From: Veronica J Gruneberg <6vjg@qlink.queensu.ca> Subject: Re: One more thing about fake IDs You know, this whole issue came up around campus when debating whether or not to allow underage frosh into our campus pubs. And the point that regualr Coke looks al lot like rum-laden Coke was raised. In a club setting, try as you might, you *cannot* prevent all underagers from drinking. Especially when it is crowded. Belive me, I know this... ;) Is a bar going to risk their liquor license to let in a small group of underagers and trust them when they say they aren't going to drink? In a word? Nope. As for the age thing... all I know is that there is a *huge* difference in my own level of maturity etc. now at almost-22 than there was when I was almost 18 or 19. Heck, even when I was almost 21. So no, it is *not* completely an arbitrary number. 21, I grant you, is a little extreme. But when I was 18 I thought 19 was a ridiculous number. Now I feel very differently. Funny how midterms amke me look for *anything* else to do besides study!! :) Veronica -- *************************************************************************** "Every time I feel the urge to | Veronica Gruneberg exercise I lie down until it | Dept. of Biology goes away." - Mark Twain | Queen's University | Kingston, Ontario ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 20:49:37 GMT From: "john" Subject: Garage Sales are a thing of the past! Garage Sales are a thing of the past! Internet auction off your used merchandise at no cost to you. Yes, it is possible! Cutebid.com is offering postings in our online auction site free for 1999! As part of Cutebid.com Grand Opening, for the remainder of 1999 you may put as many items on the auction block as you wish, FREE! Get the maximum value for your used merchandise. Even if it does not sell, we can re-post it for you until it sells. Rain or shine, moonlight or sunlight, we open 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. 52 weeks a year. For you and your customer. Why let the junk collect dust, it is easy, and it is all at: www.cutebid.com ------------------------------ Date: 20 Oct 1999 20:42:54 GMT From: srm9988n@aol.comicrelief (Lori at fruhead dot com) Subject: Re: Fake ID's, Club hours, etc. Kathleen Cain, who I've never seen post before (welcome Kathleen! Despite the volatile thread you dived in on, I mean that and I imagine so do many others) - -- did say: >Of course it sounds arbitrary to you. You are still too young to understand >the difference a year or even a few months can make to a person's maturity >and sense of responsibility. >It may seem to be unfair, but much of life can be unfair. That doesn't mean >it has to be unpleasant. There is so much to look forward to in life. Just >because you can't see Moxy Fruvous this year, doesn't mean that you never >will. Enjoy what you can while you can. Kathleen, I think you're misperceiving this as an underage-overage debate (which amm-f has hosted before) but in this case it's more a difference of philosophy. I think what Lawrence is saying is that, regardless of his own (legal) age, this system *reeks*. And if I read him correctly he's also saying that those who don't argue against an unfair status quo, be they clubs or individuals, are guilty of perpetuating it, and can justly be accused of being part of the problem because of their inaction. I'd have to say I agree with him there. While drinking-age laws, and the arbitrary restrictions they place on people's rights to hang out with their friends and see their favorite band, might not seem to carry the moral weight of sex-discrimination laws, or gender-discrimination laws, or race-discrimination laws, or religious-discrimination laws -- they all have the same effect of limiting the ability of certain groups to fully participate in society. They make some people less equal than others, on an arbitrary wholesale basis. And that's wrong, for whatever reason. - -- Lori, always tilting at some windmill or other. *************** While it may not be true that all conservative people are stupid, it is true that most stupid people are conservative. ~~ John Stuart Mill ------------------------------ Date: 20 Oct 1999 21:26:42 GMT From: srm9988n@aol.comicrelief (Lori at fruhead dot com) Subject: addendum to my last post (was: Re: Fake ID's, Club hours, etc. yikes. mea culpa. I got booted offline as I was trying to send the last message the *first* time, rewrote it hastily, and rather garbled my syntax at the end, saying confusedly: (discriminating laws) > make some people less equal than others, on an arbitrary >wholesale basis. And that's wrong, for whatever reason. The phrase *for whatever reason* was intended in the sense of "whatever allegedly overriding reason might be offered by proponents of said law." I can give a whole host of reasons why they're wrong; but some people will go on and on about extenuating circumstances. Bah. Nothing excuses discriminatory laws that limit the freedom of a class of innocent people to engage in activities permitted to society at large. - -- Lori, riding her favorite hobby horse. :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 21:36:58 GMT From: "A.J. LoCicero" Subject: Re: Fake ID's, Club hours, etc. Lori at fruhead dot com wrote: > Kathleen, I think you're misperceiving this as an underage-overage debate > (which amm-f has hosted before) but in this case it's more a difference of > philosophy. I think what Lawrence is saying is that, regardless of his own > (legal) age, this system *reeks*. And for the record, Lawrence has also stated that he is over 21, so this is not an issue of his inability to see shows, it is about who's responsibility it is for the current yicky circumstances. Vika and I and I think, Kate have argued that responsibility lies not with bars but with society. A.J. - -- _____ _ / ____(_) | | _ ___ ___ _ __ ___ | | | |/ __/ _ \ '__/ _ \ | |____| | (_| __/ | | (_) | \_____|_|\___\___|_| \___/ @wwnet.com ICQ#: 13117113 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 17:18:32 -0400 From: lawrence solomon Subject: Re: One more thing about fake IDs "A.J. LoCicero" wrote: > But most of them are. That is the point here. All of us with our > concerns about the "rights" of people under 21 are a TINY minority in > this rather conservative and puritanical country of ours. The vast but for *one* show... or two shows, even... to open the doors to everyone for the benefit of those who aren't of age... there are ways it can be done, and if the venue truly cared about customer satisfaction, they'd do it. Customer satisfaction means satisfying as many of the customers as possible, not satisfying some and completely blowing off the rest. > majority of people are very satisfied with the status quo. That is why > it IS the status quo in this case. We are certainly NOT dealing here Yeah, that's why most people don't even vote. > overwhelming attitude in American society. That is an attitude that > only a very few of us in this country can see past at the moment. You mean that drinking laws create the irresponsible underage drinking? > Under the capitalist system the goal of customer satisfaction is > theoretically driven by the goal of profit. Sometimes that works really > well, sometimes not at all. :\ except that the club has a monopoly on drinks, since most places don't let you bring stuff in from outside. so they can set the prices at whatever they want to get more profit. This is why I'm glad *most* places have water fountains. $2.50 for 5 ounces of diet coke is absurd. And I'm sure the people buying alcohol are spending a considerably larger amount per drink. - -- lawrence solomon * http://www.fruhead.com/users/zaph * zaph@fruhead.com "You knew it was true, when I held you, there were no secrets. I believed it." -Moxy Früvous, _I Will Hold On_ ------------------------------ Date: 20 Oct 1999 21:37:47 GMT From: srm9988n@aol.comicrelief (Lori at fruhead dot com) Subject: Re: Fake ID's, Club hours, etc. A.J. said: >. Vika and I >and I think, Kate have argued that responsibility lies not with bars but >with society. And I'd quibble that as the bars are part of society, they bear some responsibility for addressing its problems too. Or are we going to believe the fully laissez-faire capitalist line that business has no greater responsibility than to itself? :) - -- Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 17:50:23 -0400 From: "^kat^" Subject: Re: that bowery show... hi, newsgroupies! regarding this here show... um. suppose you were a seventeen year old who resides in connecticut and happens to have a little post-it on her computer proclaiming "NYC 12.1.99" and a hankering to a) go to NYC and b) see fruvous. now suppose you were turning eighteen a scant 16 days after this performance. and suppose you have no interest in either procuring or using a fake id (true even if my mother didn't read this newsgroup... hi, mom! *grin*). how strict are they? is it feasible? i mean, i'm hoping for 12.3 in amherst (and 12.4 in... albany? possibly?), so it wouldn't be the end of the world not to go. but it'd be nice. so, those of you who've been there... thoughts? ^kat^ "i weep, i die in endless pain and endless misery" http://fly.to/the.midway.after.dark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 18:21:09 -0400 From: "Kate Leahy" Subject: Re: One more thing about fake IDs >but for *one* show... or two shows, even... to open the doors to everyone for >the benefit of those who aren't of age... there are ways it can be done, and >if the venue truly cared about customer satisfaction, they'd do it. I think we've already been over the fact that people who are under 21 aren't customers. Clubs have no reason to satisfy them. *One* show wouldn't be the end, and it's not the responsibility of the club to accomodate the band. The club pays the band, not the other way around. I'm a student; I don't dictate the syllabus to the teacher, 'cause the teacher is the one giving me the grade. Many, many bands have young fanbases, and many, many of these younger fans can't see them all the time. It's a fact of life. That's part of what taping is for. Some of us can't fly to every show in North America, so we trade tapes. Airline tickets are expensive, as is gas. Should I complain that the airlines and gas companies are at fault for my not being able to travel? Don't you see that the law dictates the club policy? These people are *in business*, a tough business at that. It's a risk for a venue to book a band that won't guarantee them a sellout, which Früvous didn't until recently. It's not as simple as just making the club all-ages for a night. ~~Kate - -- Kate Leahy kleahy@loyola.edu katiewow@fruhead.com *********************************** "It's a long long road It's a big big world We are wise wise women We are giggling girls . . . " - --Ani DiFranco *********************************** lawrence solomon wrote in message <380E31A8.86C2E388@fruhead.com>... >"A.J. LoCicero" wrote: > >> But most of them are. That is the point here. All of us with our >> concerns about the "rights" of people under 21 are a TINY minority in >> this rather conservative and puritanical country of ours. The vast > >but for *one* show... or two shows, even... to open the doors to everyone for >the benefit of those who aren't of age... there are ways it can be done, and >if the venue truly cared about customer satisfaction, they'd do it. > >Customer satisfaction means satisfying as many of the customers as possible, >not satisfying some and completely blowing off the rest. > >> majority of people are very satisfied with the status quo. That is why >> it IS the status quo in this case. We are certainly NOT dealing here > >Yeah, that's why most people don't even vote. > >> overwhelming attitude in American society. That is an attitude that >> only a very few of us in this country can see past at the moment. > >You mean that drinking laws create the irresponsible underage drinking? > >> Under the capitalist system the goal of customer satisfaction is >> theoretically driven by the goal of profit. Sometimes that works really >> well, sometimes not at all. :\ > >except that the club has a monopoly on drinks, since most places don't let you >bring stuff in from outside. so they can set the prices at whatever they want >to get more profit. This is why I'm glad *most* places have water fountains. >$2.50 for 5 ounces of diet coke is absurd. And I'm sure the people buying >alcohol are spending a considerably larger amount per drink. >-- > lawrence solomon * http://www.fruhead.com/users/zaph * zaph@fruhead.com > "You knew it was true, when I held you, there were no secrets. > I believed it." -Moxy Früvous, _I Will Hold On_ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 22:44:59 GMT From: Melanie Subject: Lyrical Accuracy I just heard on All Things Considered that the reporters recently had to re-learn to say the last name of Augusto Pinochet-- from "pee no SHAY" to "pee no CHET". So, I'm wondering if the ever accurate Moxy Früvous will need to change the lyrics of The Kid's song to comply. Hm. :-) melanie ------------------------------ Date: 20 Oct 1999 22:43:51 GMT From: kelkelsl@aol.com (KelKelSL) Subject: Conan Tape I need to delurk for just one minute to tell you a story. Mike and I , really MIke, stayed up and taped the Conan show the other night. We are in the midst of a big move (bought a house) and I come across the tape to pack. No one had watched it yet so I decide to show my youngest son, Jacob 4, the tape. To sidetrack he is a huge Jian fan! He wants to play drums in a band when he grows up just like Jian! And next to the Tarzan soundtrack, Fruvous is the only allowed music in any vehicle. Back to the story: I put the tape in, he didn't know what it was, and played it. He immediately had a HUGE SMILE on his face. Needless to say he asked to watch that portion again. Now, over the last half hour to 45 minutes he has watched the portion of the video AT LEAST 15 times and is currently asking me to play it again. Just thought others may get a kick out of this as much as I did. By the way he is thanking me for making the Moxy Fruvous tape for him. He is calling it "his" tape. Kelly SL ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:19:01 -0400 From: jf Subject: Re: *itinerary* What happened to the Toronto show??? Daancing Queen wrote: > > Ack! So the Toronto show in December is really gone then? I was hoping it > was a misprint on the last itinerary. > > First Kingston, now Toronto....argh, my plans are all going downhill. > > Sara > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 23:10:58 GMT From: vika@attglobal.net (Vika Zafrin) Subject: Re: that bowery show... Spake "^kat^" : >so, those of you who've been there... thoughts? Call them, kat. I'd think that, since we're not talking 21+ here (i.e., you don't have to be Legal To Drink), maybe they'll let you in, if nothing else then with a chaperone. And I'm sure you could find a chaperone around here somewhere. :) - -v P.S. Let us know what you find out! - ----------- Vika Zafrin ----------- vika@attglobal.net ----------- http://www.fruhead.com/users/vika/index.html http://www.brown.edu/Research/Decameron "Hey, ground, I'm nobody's lunch." -Eddie From Ohio ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 23:16:15 GMT From: vika@attglobal.net (Vika Zafrin) Subject: Re: One more thing about fake IDs Spake lawrence solomon : [A.J.:] >> overwhelming attitude in American society. That is an attitude that >> only a very few of us in this country can see past at the moment. > >You mean that drinking laws create the irresponsible underage drinking? I'd say, rather, that drinking laws are created by people with paranoic attitudes toward alcohol, and perpetuate the paranoia (a catch-22? sure). And these attitudes are what create irresponsible underage drinking. Kids/teenagers aren't getting *taught* what alcohol is like, or how to drink it responsibly. They are flat out forbidden to even touch it. And, having become the forbidden fruit, the thought of it becomes all that much sweeter. Sigh. Don't get me started again. I already posted a loooong tirade on the U.S. attitudes toward alcohol in...... October of '97, leading up to the Mercury Lounge shows, during yet another bar/club admittance debate. - -v - ----------- Vika Zafrin ----------- vika@attglobal.net ----------- http://www.fruhead.com/users/vika/index.html http://www.brown.edu/Research/Decameron "Hey, ground, I'm nobody's lunch." -Eddie From Ohio ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 20:23:48 -0400 From: Amanda Wilson Subject: Suggestion for those who oppose age restrictions If you strongly oppose age restrictions, I suggest that you not attend shows at age-restricted venues. Take a stand; let the club's management know why you're not there; let the band know why you're not there. Let your state representatives and local lawmakers know about your boycott. Take it to the media. Put your money where your mouth is, in other words. - --ACW ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 00:16:12 GMT From: StarflashJ@aol.com Subject: Re: that bowery show... I don't think that the Bowery is too strict.. and for certain shows places are usually less strict. I will be at the show.. and actually I have to call the Ballroom so when I do i will ask them what their rules are!! Hope that'll help ya a little ~*Jen*~ ------------------------------ Date: 21 Oct 1999 00:25:21 GMT From: srm9988n@aol.comicrelief (Lori at fruhead dot com) Subject: Re: Fake ID needed : ) Josh Drury said: >As a former beer vendor, I was never good at guessing ages. I think the >oldest person I ID'd was about 34. They appeared grateful. I <3 getting carded! The last time it happened was at the Odeon ... bouncers do it just for the hugs, I think. :) - -- Lori ************ older than 34 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 00:22:55 GMT From: Sanjita Nag <7sn5@qlink.queensu.ca> Subject: Re: Fake ID needed : ) On Tue, 19 Oct 1999, miyax wrote: > Heard the December 1 show @ the Bowery Ballroom was 18 and over. I'll > send a picture if someone can get me a fake id hehe > For discussion's sake, I'm a really short 15 year old. So because of my > 5'1" height I probably wouldn't get in anyhow...just an idea : ) > > miyax > Since you put that in for discussion's sake....... I'm a really short 25-year old. I'm 5' 1/2", 5'1" if I hyperextend my neck and stand really straight, and I have very little problem getting into places these days (although I admit this is a new phenomenon, I'm sort of young-looking, and they only stopped carding me last year). Don't worry, it's your attitude and look that really matter, not your height. I actually like being short. We can alter our clothes to make them smaller. Really tall people can't alter their clothes to make them larger. :) short and proud of it, Sanjita ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:16:31 -0500 From: Josh Drury Subject: Re: Fake ID needed : ) Donna Hunt wrote: > miyax wrote: > > > Heard the December 1 show @ the Bowery Ballroom was 18 and over. I'll > > send a picture if someone can get me a fake id hehe > > For discussion's sake, I'm a really short 15 year old. So because of my > > 5'1" height I probably wouldn't get in anyhow...just an idea : ) > > Hey now... I'm 5'3" and 26... it's not about equating height with age. :P > Maybe the Bowery has one of those "You must be this tall to enter" signs. > > Then again... I'm still constantly getting carded. :P > > Even in Canada! Can you believe that?! As a former beer vendor, I was never good at guessing ages. I think the oldest person I ID'd was about 34. They appeared grateful. Josh Drury Winnipeg, where 18 is old enough for pretty much anything ------------------------------ End of alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V3 #901 ********************************************