From: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org (alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest) To: ammf-digest@smoe.org Subject: alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V3 #734 Reply-To: ammf@fruvous.com Sender: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest Monday, August 23 1999 Volume 03 : Number 734 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: OT: chad alleges Trace gets lost easily [srm9988n@aol.comicrelief (Lo] Re: Misplaced [vika@fruhead.com (Vika Zafrin)] Re: Misplaced [srm9988n@aol.comicrelief (Lori at fruhead dot com)] Re: NYE and NYD ["Hell Hotel" ] Re: hmmm, i think im missing messages here... [trace@fruhead.com (Trace)] [FAQ] Monthly posting the Frequently Asked Questions [Chad Maloney ] OT but musical at least [Groovy Spice ] Re: a new fruvous radio station??? [srm9988n@aol.comicrelief (Lori at fru] Re: OT: chad alleges Trace and Lori get lost easily [Veronica J Gruneberg] Meet & Greet ["Lindsay Lion" ] Re: Meet & Greet [Bridget ] GEH on WBER :) [ap003f@mail1 (Adrianne)] [FAQ] alt.music.moxy-fruvous FAQ (4/4) [Keeper of the FAQ Gee, lost in DC... now *that's* hard to do!! even for the locals. >...mayve that's just the bitterness of being horribly lost in the >Southeast side this weekend (somewhere aroudn 4th Street, I think...) yet another Frühead narrowly escapes the City That Makes No Sense! >:) Veronica (who has finally, wisely invested in a map of DC!) do you really think that will help? hmmm. - -- Lori, who's never gotten abysmally, utterly, hang-it-all-up-and-bail lost in DC. Yet. I'm certain it's only a matter of time. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 16:15:58 GMT From: vika@fruhead.com (Vika Zafrin) Subject: Re: Misplaced "A.J. LoCicero" said: >At Frucon I Mike >said that Cedric Fruvous had never been played publicly before, but then I think he >was corrected and somebody (Murray or Jian) said that they'd played it once in >Halifax or somewhere else like that. To which Mike (if memory doesn't fail me) promptly replied: "One generally doesn't remember things done in Halifax." - -v Vika Zafrin, vika at ibm dot net "Great, I'm a landmark now." -FatherO ------------------------------ Date: 23 Aug 1999 16:24:38 GMT From: srm9988n@aol.comicrelief (Lori at fruhead dot com) Subject: Re: Misplaced AJ thought a great deal and said: >I've never heard of Big Fish being played >or Jenny Washington for that matter (Photosynthesis doesn't count). At >Frucon I Mike >said that Cedric Fruvous had never been played publicly before, but then I >think he >was corrected and somebody (Murray or Jian) said that they'd played it once >in >Halifax or somewhere else like that. (I'm too lazy to dig out the tape). I'm too lazy to go to FDC and check the setlist, even, but I'm fairly certain they played *both* at the Ottawa Folk Festival political workshop last August (which, granted, would have been after FrüConI). Or maybe I'm just hallucinating. It's been known to happen. > Now guys, how about Bed and Breakfast? What he said! I second it! Yeah! :) - -- Lori Lori@fruhead.com ~^~^~^ ~~ ~^~ ^~^~^~^~ ^~^ ~^~^~^~^~ ~^~^~^~ ^~^~^~ ^~^~^~^~~~ My Strange and Wonderful World: http://members.aol.com/srm9988n/index.html The spiffy amm-f FAQ: http://www.fruvous.com/news/faq.html ------------------------------ Date: 23 Aug 1999 16:21:13 GMT From: "Hell Hotel" Subject: Re: NYE and NYD > > I had to laugh at this. Here I'm hoping I'm going to be able to schedule > a cross-country, multi-stop holiday trip that will land my butt in Times > Square at midnight, Jan. 31. I don't think I could find a more crowded > place further from home with more people--and it sounds like it would be > a blast! (Especially after spending a few days in the Midwest with the > entire extended family.) Wish me luck on the routing. It's pretty hard > to get good flights to all the glamorous places I'm going to be visiting > on that trip for less than $800. (Why can't my family live in an airline > hub city?) > > Cookie > I really, really need to get to work. I don't know about the rest of you, but times square is the LAST place I want to be on this NYE. I mean, if anything frigged up is gonna happen...it's gonna happen there. There are a lot of sick sick people out there. I just hope that the sick people stay away from buffallo!! - -Eric ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 16:22:50 GMT From: trace@fruhead.com (Trace) Subject: Re: hmmm, i think im missing messages here... On 23 Aug 1999 03:46:36 GMT, sugarfly26@aol.com (SugarFly26) wrote: >anyone know why, or have a possible remedy? twould be much appreciated. >gracias. Hi Ln, This happens a lot. Newsservers are not known for being completely stable with respect to getting the correct posts in the correct order at the right time. I often get responses before I receive the original posts. I don't think there is a fix for this problem aside from using another newserver, but *that* newsserver might have the same problem anyway. This is one of those reasons why it is always a good idea to quote what you're replying to in your follow-up message. Newsservers are tricksy :-) - -- Trace trace@fruhead.com "Part of a new, emerging feminist movement." ~Jian commenting on his Brittany Spears t-shirt: 7/24/99 Crisis, Get Help ~Anagram of "The Spice Girls" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:31:28 -0500 From: Chad Maloney Subject: [FAQ] Monthly posting the Frequently Asked Questions Ok, this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship. I'm gonna try to post the FAQ to the newsgroup group once a month, probably close to the first of the month. Now, I'd like some input on this from people who care, which is a probably all of you. Either email me privately or post public your thoughts. I'm gonna use the subject header I used here. Anything I post that is FAQ related, I'll try to put [FAQ] in the header. The FAQ is loooong. I don't know the old length, but I added a bunch to it and I'm inately wordy if you haven't learned that yet from my posting here. I can either post pointers to the FAQ monthly here, I can post the whole 92k FAQ in one post, or I can break up the FAQ into multiple posts. Which would you prefer? For this first time, I'm gonna break the FAQ into 4 around 500 line sections and post it. But I want input on what you guys think I should do later. As always, your input to the FAQ is essential. I had some people proofread, but now that the new version is going out to everyone, you are all proofreaders. If you think something is wrong, please tell me. If you don't like the way I say something, please tell me. And when you tell me, use ammf-faq@fruhead.com to do it. I have a mail filter that puts mail from there in a place where it doesn't get mixed up with everything else. - Chad ------------------------------ Date: 23 Aug 1999 16:44:49 GMT From: srm9988n@aol.comicrelief (Lori at fruhead dot com) Subject: Does it scare anyone else .... To hear a random radio cut of, say, Billie Jean done by *Michael Jackson*? Just don't seem natural, somehow. :) - -- Lori ------------------------------ Date: 23 Aug 1999 17:01:40 GMT From: jsmooth69@aol.com (JSmooth69) Subject: Re: NYE and NYD <> All of the sick people already LIVE in Buffalo. What other kind of people would live in a place with all the snow we get, and the Buffalo Bills? Personally, I can't wait to leave. . .But I'll be there for NYE and NYD Jason -"How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 16:35:59 GMT From: trace@fruhead.com (Trace) Subject: Re: NYE and NYD On 23 Aug 1999 16:21:13 GMT, "Hell Hotel" wrote: >I don't know about the rest of you, but times square is the LAST place I >want to be on this NYE. I mean, if anything frigged up is gonna >happen...it's gonna happen there. There are a lot of sick sick people out >there. I just hope that the sick people stay away from buffallo!! Sorry Eric, you're out of luck there. I'll be attending NYE in Buffalo. :-D - -- Trace trace@fruhead.com "Part of a new, emerging feminist movement." ~Jian commenting on his Brittany Spears t-shirt: 7/24/99 Crisis, Get Help ~Anagram of "The Spice Girls" ------------------------------ Date: 23 Aug 1999 16:51:31 GMT From: dalevy@aol.com (DALevy) Subject: Re: where do YOU buy cds? > ::groan:: okay...i think im giving up on stores carrying fruvous. where do >you >> guys buy fruvous cds? I got weird looks from clerks at a Sam Goody store in a neighborhood that sells mostly rap tunes. Couldn't find it at a Sam Goody in San Diego either. But Borders in Palo Alto had about a dozen copies of Thornhill in their new releases rack (and other Fru-discs in the regular section). A Wherehouse store in downtown SF had one copy of Thornhill, Wood and Moon on Saturday. I bought copies from Borders, Amazon, and CDNow so far. Since they make great gifts, I'm sure I'll buy more at other stores. : ) And I was quite pleased to log onto Yahoo this morning and find "Thornhill" by Moxy Fruvous on the front page listing of featured albums and new releases (the listings come from CDNow.) Doug Levy SF - --who can't wait til October 23! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 16:34:11 GMT From: trace@fruhead.com (Trace) Subject: Re: OT: chad alleges Trace gets lost easily On 23 Aug 1999 16:13:52 GMT, srm9988n@aol.comicrelief (Lori at fruhead dot com) wrote: >-- Lori, who's never gotten abysmally, utterly, hang-it-all-up-and-bail lost in >DC. Yet. I'm certain it's only a matter of time. Yes, I can attest. Lori to Val and I in the car, in DC, "WHERE_DO_I_TURN??????!" We weren't much help either...but luckily there were nice people on the sidewalk who were willing to point us in the right direction, and we didn't get sucked in by the evil vortex surrounding DC :-) - -- Trace trace@fruhead.com "Part of a new, emerging feminist movement." ~Jian commenting on his Brittany Spears t-shirt: 7/24/99 Crisis, Get Help ~Anagram of "The Spice Girls" ------------------------------ Date: 23 Aug 1999 17:01:43 GMT From: shadoeme@aol.com (ShadoeMe) Subject: a new fruvous radio station??? well, here on the eastern half of LI, we are sadly teetering on the edge of fruvous radiodom. (wfuv *sometimes* comes in. it comes in in my car, but not in my house...bla) so, wrote an e-mail to the SUNYSB radio station (another college run public sponcered radio station that REALLY comes in) "explaining" fruvous to the best of my ability. and i got a happy responce...i'm keeping my figers crossed. here is my happy correspondance me says "thanks so much for providing an alternative to the Nsync infested radio waves that seem so common in LI these days. kudos to you! "i am writing, though, to make a request. I have yet to hear Moxy Fruvous played on this station. they are a wonderful quartet of voices and unconventional instamentation that formed on the streets of Toronto. their sounds range from "barbershop quartet" to "middle eastern" to "the might be giants-esque rock". they write alot of political satire, as well as some rather touching emotional songs, and some bouts of random sillyness. they have recently come out with a new album entitled "thornhill"(after their home town) featuring the new single "i will hold on" "they also have 5 other CD's - Bargainville, Wood, 'B' (an ep), Live Noise, and You Will Go To The Moon. (all of which i personally prefer to there newest album). "I would love to hear them played on your station. (the only station around here that i have heard them on is WFUV, which, sadly, does not come in in my house) thanks a lot!" and they responded "Shadoe, "Music Director Kermit just checked that one into the studio earlier this morning. If our dj's like it, they'll spin it. "You;ve already made it sound interesting to me... David" YIPPEEEEEEEEE smiles genna ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 12:19:05 -0500 From: Josh Drury Subject: Re: Don Dixon Hugh Miller wrote: > Listen to a track on "Reckoning" called "Don't Go Back to > Rockville". At the beginning is a brief studio outtake of Bill Berry > and Peter Buck noodling and Stipe crooning "Gettin' in the mood!" in > his Elvis voice. I love that part! Now, I don't know if I'd consider Reckoning the best REM album, but it definitely has its moments. That being one of them. > Very Thornhill. I'll see about that tomorrow. Already have plans to head to HMV straight after work, and if all goes well I'll have it in my CD player by 6. Like a kid at Christmas, Josh Drury Winnipeg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 17:29:33 GMT From: Groovy Spice Subject: OT but musical at least DC area people: free EFO show wednesday evening 8/25 at the lakefront in columbia, MD. yay! peace, ellen (show starts 8PM) *************************************************** Airborne with nothing to land on... Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Aug 1999 17:33:30 GMT From: srm9988n@aol.comicrelief (Lori at fruhead dot com) Subject: Re: a new fruvous radio station??? Genna wrote: >so, wrote an e-mail to the SUNYSB radio station (another >college run public sponcered radio station that REALLY comes in) "explaining" >fruvous to the best of my ability. and i got a happy responce...i'm keeping >my >figers crossed. Way to go, Genna! Sounds like you'll be getting Früvous onto your local airwaves, and with any luck, if one station in the SUNY system starts playing them the rest will follow suit. Kudos! - -- Lori Lori@fruhead.com ~^~^~^ ~~ ~^~ ^~^~^~^~ ^~^ ~^~^~^~^~ ~^~^~^~ ^~^~^~ ^~^~^~^~~~ My Strange and Wonderful World: http://members.aol.com/srm9988n/index.html The spiffy amm-f FAQ: http://www.fruvous.com/news/faq.html ------------------------------ Date: 23 Aug 1999 17:34:07 GMT From: Veronica J Gruneberg <6vjg@qlink.queensu.ca> Subject: Re: OT: chad alleges Trace and Lori get lost easily Well, no, the map didn't help. But it only didn't help when I got to Baltimore. I swear, taking the 695 West into DC and the 695 West out again is the most backwards thing I have *ever* heard!! :) No freakin' wonder I've gotten lost there twice now. On the plus side, this time I figured out we were going the wrong way *before* I hit Conneticut! (hey, if you're going to get lost, go big or go home, eh?) I am also not insane enough to try driving around DC. I just find my way (eventually) over to Arlington, park the car at the motel and let my friends (locals) do the driving from there. Even Quebec drivers aren't as bad!! Then I make them drive me back to the B-W Pkwy, 'cause there is no *way* I'm finding it on my own! (Although, improvement, I can now find it from 295!) :) Veronica (I have *got* to find some friends on this side of the border, where the cities aren't built in circles! ;) - -- *************************************************************************** "Never look at the trombones, | Veronica Gruneberg it only encourages them." | Dept. of Biology - Richard Strauss | Queen's University | Kingston, Ontario ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 14:20:08 -0500 From: "Lindsay Lion" Subject: Meet & Greet So a few of us were on the scribbles wall today and I got an idea. We all meet online- but don't always have a chance to meet in real life. And lots of us have common interests, So I was thinking that maybe we should all get together. Maybe for dinner or some other activity where we could all get to know one another. I am just thinking out loud and wondered if anyone in the philly area (or who wanted to come to philly) would be interested in this kind of thing... Lindsay - -- - --- Lindsay Lion Manager of Operations & Technology Biosyn, Inc. llion@biosyn-inc.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:54:36 GMT From: Bridget Subject: Re: Meet & Greet - --- Lindsay Lion wrote: > So a few of us were on the scribbles wall today > and I got an idea. > > We all meet online- but don't always have a > chance to meet in real life. > And lots of us have common interests, So I was > thinking that maybe we should > all get together. Maybe for dinner or some > other activity where we could > all get to know one another. just my $0.02... we did this in denver and had a blast. of course there're only about a dozen fruheads in denver, but we're a _fun_ dozen! i think the gang (dubbed denver frucrew) still gets together from time to time... (bridget hasn't seen anyone since the june concert in boulder... eek!). === over 'n' out xoxoxo bridget "Canada should be at the end of this street." ~Eddie from Ohio, 'Fifth of July' __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: 23 Aug 1999 18:36:03 GMT From: ap003f@mail1 (Adrianne) Subject: GEH on WBER :) Just thought I would share the moment that made my entire day :) I was driving around Rochester, thinking to myself that I hadn't heard Moxy in a while on WBER, and all of a sudden, a strangely familiar song started to play. I turned it up, and lo and behold, in was Green Eggs and Ham, from the indie tape. I couldn't believe it! So, after the song was over, the dj starts talking about the origin of the song, and how people were asking where they could get it. He mentioned all of the albums. It was quite cool :) - -- when you see the light at the end of the tunnel, beware. it could be the headlights of a train coming straight at you. .-~~-.--. : ) .~ ~ -.\ /.- ~~ . > . .' < ( .- -. ) - -.-~ - -' ~-.- -' ( : ) _ _ .-: ~--. : .--~ .-~ .-~ } ~-.-^-.-~ \_ .~ .-~ .~ \ \' \ '_ _ -~ .. // . - ~ ~-.__.-.// .-~ . - ~ }~ ~ ~-.~-. .' .-~ .-~ :/~-.~-./: /_~_ _ . - ~ ~-.~-._ ~-.< ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:15:56 -0500 From: Keeper of the FAQ Subject: [FAQ] alt.music.moxy-fruvous FAQ (4/4) [Part 4/4] Credits: Many thanks go out to Colleen Campbell, creator and initial maintainer of the alt.music.moxy-fruvous FAQ. Without her, this whole thing would never have been started. A ton of thanks to Jude Coombe at Moxy Fruvous Headquarters for posting helpful official information to the newsgroup. Official involvement in alt.music.moxy-fruvous is really appreciated as it helps keep the denizens in line. Also, another myriad of "thank you"'s and "huzzahs" to Chris O'Malley, keeper of Fruvous Dot Com ( http://www.fruvous.com ) and all around excellent fellow. Thanks to Chris for having a space for the FAQ on FDC and updating it there for me. Thanks to Gordon Elgart for the information provided in Song and Lyrics Question #11. Thanks to Chris "Moz" Moesel for scanning in the Trivial Pursuit card for Fruvous Dot Com. Thanks to Rodney Ellin for the information provided in Fruvous Characters Question #3. Thanks to Joe Navratil for sending the post that is archived in Appendix A and starting the acronym listing that has become Appendix C. Thanks to Lori Martin for the AOL info from Fruvous Internet Resources question #3. Helpful proofreaders without whom this FAQ would be full of "teh"s, usage of past tense instead of present tense, and other miscellaneous badness: Vika Zafrin, Jennifer Cenicola, Amanda Potter, Ken Perschke, Mary Krause, Jennifer Schlosser, Liza Q. Wirtz, Traci Poli, and Jason Reiser. Appendices Appendix A - An explanation of why age restricted venues exist and bands play at them This post was send to the FAQ by Joe Navratil. He saved it off a mailing list he is on and is reprinted here with permission. Subject: [footprints] age, clubs, and economics Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 13:53:21 -0400 From: Will Foy To: footprints@onelist.com From: Will Foy i know everyone's sick of this, but it's a frustrating thing for those who are under [ and we were ALL underage at some point ], so i wanted to say a few words about this. a warning, this is sorta long, but i want to kinda walk people through the steps of why... it doesn't make age restrictions feel any better, but it explains the why's. i'm going to be writing using my own personal experiences, some of which talking with promoters, club owners, bands, club staff, and my own fraternity's risk management position, which deals with some of the exact same laws and modes of thought. your mileage may vary on some of the things i'm going to discuss, but by and large, these are industry norms. so, you're starting up a club. cool deal! it's something i've entertained for a while myself, and may well do one day. you're a big music fan, and don't wanna rave club or something silly like that, so you go out, you book about 2 months worth of bands to play in advance. you, as your own promoter, want people to come out, and see these bands that you enjoy as a fan, and pay you for the privilege of coming into your club to see them. this is called a cover charge, and we've all paid one probably at some point. you also want to make it affordable so the college kids [ you did put your club in a college town didn't you? ] can come and see them too! you make your default ticket price $5, which is reasonable, and it also works nice for the numbers. so, as you're building your club, you have the local fire marshall come out, inspect the club [ you have to do this ], and rate your capacity. he says you can hold 500 people in your new club. so, an interesting thing here... at your default rate, you can make only 2500 from the door. keep that number in mind. now, when you signed up the bands with their booking agents [ people like PGA, who handles r.e.m., (e:), sting, boatloads of other people, red light, creative artists, and many times, the bands themselves ], you signed a contract. this contract has LOTS of stuff in it, including for the moment, a couple of statements about fees for performance, etc. most bands have a hybrid style contract. they'll get an amount that must be paid, period. this is called a guarantee. that amount ranges based on how well known the band is in that area, how much they have made and expect to make at repeat performances, and all kinds of other factors. it's made through negotiation. let's say that you book a band, the Smokin' Mirrors, who aren't known real well in your area, and they ask for a $500 guarantee. that's reasonable you think, so you sign that part of the contract. typically, bands will also ask for a percentage of the door take. this percentage may vary by club. jack straw's for example, does 100% of the door. ziggy's does 80-band/20-club in most cases.... before you get to 80/20, you have to meet the guarantee, so it's usually 100% of the door upto the guarantee, then 80% of the rest. so, let's say you booked on a good night, lots of people came out, and you sold 250 tickets. that's 250x5 = 750... so, the band gets their 500 from the guarantee + 80% of 250, which is 200. they get 700 of that 750. hmmm, you had a half-full club, which is pretty good most nights for an unknown band, and you make out with only 50 bucks.... hmmm... file that one away. let's say that you booked them on a wednesday night, and it's midterms week at the Local University... so, you get 75 people. that's 75x5 = 375. you actually LOST 125 bucks, b/c you had to pay the rest of that $500 guarantee out of pocket. most businesses i know of, don't exist to lose money. casinos might give out millions or even billions, but casinos aren't built on your winnings. they're built on the losses of countless people. likewise, clubs don't exist just as music museums, they exist to make money. so, here are some choices facing a club owner: 1) raise ALL ticket prices: aside from probably driving some people out the market, you do get the effect of raising your marginal rate, which makes you some more money, but is the increase in your marginal ticket price going to offset the downshift in demand? for tickets? probably not, especially for MOST of the smaller, lesser known acts. think people like the disco biscuits, owsley, and VH early on in their career. vh loves to talk about how the first time they played ziggy's there were 25 people there, and now they routinely sell out hours before the show [ and sometimes days ]. they didn't get to that point overnight, as we all know, but it has some implications for club economics. not the least of which is that currently, you could charge 10-15 for a VH ticket, but you couldn't do that when only 25 people show up. doesn't work well. 2) so, using that example, you only raise ticket prices on BIG shows... hoping to raise your profit on BIG shows where you sell out the club's capacity, to offset the losses of lesser attended shows. good idea, but a lot of the time, if a band knows it's going to sell the place out, it's going to raise the amount they want guaranteed. i don't think VH would be too happy with a $500 guarantee at a place they've sold out every time they've played for close to 2 years now. so, remember that 2500 max figure, you HAVE to raise your ticket prices to cover the increase in guarantee in many cases. ie, if after a few years of playing your club, the Smokin' Mirrors are doing well every night they play, they're going to ask for say, $2500 guaranteed. this is not astronomical by any stretch for a guarantee... so, you HAVE to sell out to make money at $5 a head... so, you raise the price to $10. that way, anything over halffull and you make a few bucks... 3) you could lower your prices, hoping to drive up demand for tickets. this may work for really really unknown bands to bring people who wouldn't pay 5 bucks, but would pay 3... you might make more, but there's no guaranty that people who wouldn't pay 5 bucks would pay at all, for an unknown band... these are the people who know two songs by artists we've loved for years... i'll use EMB [ and i love EMB as band and people, just good folks] as an example. there are people who have seen them for years, dating back to their old drummer, pre-larry on guitar, pre-band even. these people know all the songs, probly trade tapes, etc [ they're like US!!!! ], then there are those who know "Solitude", "I'll Be" and maybe "I Could Not Ask for More" sing those till their throats pop, and that's it. fine, they're fans too. that's ok... but they barely come out for bands they do know from radio play... do you honestly think they'll come out for a band they've never heard of, ever, much less on radio? tickets at 3 bucks or 5 bucks... doesn't much matter. this strategy sometimes works, but you have to pick your spots. 4) you could "tax" merchandise sales... bands hate this, but some venues do take a small chunk out of the merch sales... maybe 5 or 10 %... but, merch sales compared to tickets for MOST shows [ not all ], are probably going to be much less. you might make a few bucks here, but it's not worth the good will of the band to push this marginal club tax rate higher and higher to make more $ for the club. not a good idea. a band i won't mention [ not VH ] RAILED against a college that had this in their contract for playing. they took 15% from merch sales, and the band hated it. raised all kinds of cain trying to fight it, but in the end, their management signed the contract, and it was binding. no choice. i doubt they'll play that college again, which is sad. you as a club owner, want them to WANT to come back and play, so this is a bad idea. 5) you could sell something else.... ah-ha!!! here's a place where you can make some more money, and probably won't have anything in the contract you have to fork over to the band... great! now what'cha gonna sell? you could sell club t-shirts, yeah! that's it.... oh wait, if joe and jane clubhopper buy a t-shirt a piece, they probly won't buy another one next week when they come to see another band at your club. what else could you sell? hmmm, i got it! let's make it a smoothie bar! you'll sell great fruit and vegetable shake concoctions... only trouble is no one can stand the noise those damn blenders make. hmmm... how about beer!? people will buy it over and over again, each time they come, and popping a top or twisting a cap is pretty quiet relative to the 110 dB's the PA is cranking out. not to mention less costly and less messy as far as cleanup in the bar area... now, here's where we get into some interesting business decisions... ok, so, you as a business have your standard liability insurance [ your local gap has liability insurance incase someone falls, breaks a hip and sues... businesses have to have this to function and be licensed ] doesn't cover sales of alcohol, b/c it's legally and liability wise risky... at least that's what their bean counters and actuaries tell them. so, if you wanna sell alcohol they tell you, you have to pay them much more in insurance fees. so there is an additional cost to even trying to generate more revenue. likewise, if your primary audience is 21+ it's not a problem. but if you're in a college town, you're going to have some people 20- who wanna come too... therein lies another problem: in most states [ and this does vary from state to state, due to state insurance laws ], if you have 20-'ers in your club, the marginal insurance rate can go up for those businesses. so they'll charge you EVEN MORE for the 18-20 year olds... and even more still for the 17-'ers, if they're even permitted to go inside the club. so, there are some ways around this increase in costs... 1) don't allow 20-'ers in. 2) don't allow 17-'ers in. 3) charge more for underagers [ this is VERY common ]. 4) don't sell alcohol. none of those options is great, and now you get a flavor for what's coming up for club owners... but, there's another wrinkle that makes this even more difficult... your capacity, was what, 500 people? given that everyone counts the same whether they're 50 or 5 years old, the more underagers in your club, the less product you are likely to sell, since you can't sell to those under 21. thus, if you have a show in which you're going to have a bunch of teenagers, your bar is probably going to sell less beer, b/c they can't buy it... but moreover, they take the slot of an of-ager. lemme repeat that. every ticket you sell to someone under 21, takes a ticket away [potentially in a sellout of the show] from a 21+ person. thus, from an economic, and not emotional sense, it's pretty easy to see why a club might be less willing to do shows for 20-'ers. in the case of a non-sellout show, it makes little difference, but if the show sells out, it's bad for business for underagers to be in the house. jack straw's for YEARS was a 21+ only club. at the age of 20, swearing away my firstborn, swearing on the honor code of my school [ which at davidson, a violation can get you suspended for a semester, or kicked out. happens not a lot, but when violations happen, it's A Bad Thing. ], etc... it took Steve Van Dam and Randy Reed [ lead guitarist and manager ] of Everything to get me in that night. i had the club owner watching me like a hawk all night. we're now friends, and i think in that night, showed him that 18+ might not be a bad idea. however, it took some doing. i was allowed in, but if i tried to bring a friend with me, forget it. it was hassle city again. there are some ways around the loss of revenue from underagers... you can sell tickets at a higher price, which is very common. you can also have stuff other than alcohol to sell. ziggy's now sells cokes and bottled spring water. this is helpful in the summer for everyone, b/c it's really damn hot in there sometimes without people, much less 800 or so writhing bodies dancing singing, and filling the club with hot air. these help some, but not a ton. that said, it's not easy, and ideally everyone would be able to attend, but it's sometimes legally difficult too. b/c most clubs don't sell food, they don't qualify as restaurants, which are subject to different alcohol control laws. for instance, any of us could probably walk into an olive garden [ used b/c it's ubiquitous ], sit down, and have a meal, enjoy a band or whatever if they had one. but, they sell food. in the eyes of The Man, they are very different from your local bar/club [ Mama Kin's, Ziggy's, Alley Katz, the Bayou -rock in peace -, and The Muse , etc, etc, etc ], which is subject to strict control, Alcohol Law Enforcement raids, stings, and repeated visits... they also have different laws period about control. in many states, alcohol must be kept in a separate area from where underagers may go... ie, if you're 25, and having a beer, you can't be in the main part of the venue, but in a cardon'ed off area where only of agers can go. this makes some venues say, nope, we're not doing that, no 20-'ers then. it offends the people who are of age, and who pay their ticket prices too, and would drive them away from that venue. also in many states, if the club sells liquor, people under 18 aren't allowed in, period. in NC, if the club sells liquor, you must be a member of the club, or a guest of a member to purchase it, and it must be kept in a separate area. thus, ziggy's created a membership program, for $5 lifetime membership, for which you get a monthly calendar, and a card, as well as access to the liquor bar, pool tables, and much cleaner bathrooms. it sucks mightily, but it's the law. violation could mean shutting down the club, which would not be preferable to restrictions. now, there are people you could blame as a fan, but the club owner isn't probably one of them. they're people who may not make a ton of money. they own a club, b/c they probably really love music, and while they make a profit, they're not turning into millionaires any time soon. keep in mind, they have to pay for power, insurance, water, facilities like bathrooms and repairs to items damaged by people who come in, plus, paying for sound, lighting, heating and cooling, etc, etc, etc... how does that get paid for? cover charge, and bar. it's not a good thing for those of you who are underage, but the club owner isn't the guy you wanna blame. blame your state lawmakers. blame the federal restriction on alcohol to 21, if the state wants federal highway funds. blame idiots who drink and drive when they could wait 5 minutes and call a cab, which brought the ire of MADD, SADD, and lawmakers to raise the drinking age. blame the boneheads who are underage and try to drink. i heartily discourage you from buying fakes. why? b/c it ends up hurting clubs, b/c if they get busted by ALE, b/c of you, their insurance goes up, they may have to close, etc. not A Good Thing. cabeesh? instead, here are some ideas: 1) lobby the band to force the club to do all ages shows. if the band, like VH, is well known, the club may cave. this happens. it takes some doing, but it happens. jack straw's was 21+, but was forced to be 16+ [not quite all ages], for a Jump, Little Children show, b/c they made it part of the contract, and wouldn't play without it. email VH and other bands you love, to voice that you're 16 or 14, and you'd go to see them, even paying extra, to go to see them in your area, if they'd make the club do all ages. i'd bet they'll listen and try to make it happen. don't be mad if they can't. it may not be legally possible. it sucks... 2) lobby your government to repeat 21+ alcohol laws, atleast as they partain to music clubs. write your house rep, write your senators, write to your state house and senate people, write to the governor, and keep at it. you might not be 18, but if you can voice your opinion, it makes it well known that your vote for or against them hangs in the balance. 3) lobby the club to do all ages shows, or 18+ for those shows... suggest that you pay more to balance their costs. it might work. i lobbied Chandler at jack straw's for this, even after i was 21, so that people i knew could come to shows. 4) beg and please with the club staff... it sometimes works. keep at it. don't be angry, or violent, or hassle them. be polite. it's your best weapon in this scenario. 5) call the band ahead, and don't ask to be on the guest list [ b/c they'll still check id ], but ask them to put some sort of "responsible underager list" at the door. they might do it. most of all, when you're out, and underage, be responsible. don't drink. it's what started this mess for clubs and 18-20 year olds in the first place. if you wanna drink, do it somewhere else. i personally think it's no crime for an 18 year old who can be drafted, to drink a frosty cold beer. in fact, i think that laws should be corrected so that like my old roomie from Cyprus could, drink at 12 [ basically old enough to see over the bar ], and drive at 18 or 21. that would be vastly preferable. it's easier to take care of a body than it is to take care of a car and a body. please whatever you do, don't drink and drive... again, this is what made stupid inane, unfriendly laws happen. take a cab, have a designated driver, get a ride with a friend. your car will be fine, get it the next morning [ just make sure you put your Club on the steering column ] friends, take the keys. club owners bend the rules sometimes, so being responsible will encourage that type of thing more often. do i sound like an old fuddy duddy? perhaps... but this is after close to 7 years of club experience, working the door, doing merch, hanging out with bartenders at far too late an hour, talking with owners, etc... they know what they're doing. does it suck... you bet... try some of the stuff i wrote above. it may make a difference. Appendix B - alt.music.moxy-fruvous newsgroup definitions and etiquette suggestions Contained herein are some general Usenet tips, suggestions, definitions, and recommendations that are tailored to alt.music.moxy-fruvous. Please read this section and bear in mind its contents when reading or posting to the newsgroup. There are many many newsgroup subscribers who get posts in various different ways and each person has their own likes and dislikes. alt.music.moxy-fruvous DOs and DON'Ts DO read the newsgroup for a week or two before posting. It helps you get a feel for the atmosphere, what people like to read and what they don't like to read and just generally gets you acclimated to your audience. DON'T post in all capital letters. On a.m.m-f this is considered shouting and is very rude. Use capitalized words sparingly and when you mean to stress something. DON'T POST IN ALL CAPITALS. DO quote a bit of the post you are responding to when replying so that people reading your reply get the context of your reply. Usenet can get some messages out of order, so your message needs to be self contained or some people may not get your point. DON'T quote the entire contents of the message you are replying to. Snip out the irrelevant parts and just quote what is necessary to get the idea of what you are replying to. Many people don't like to wade through 30 lines of quoting to get to 3 lines of response. DON'T leave the entire contents of the article you are replying to at the bottom of your post. Many people read the newsgroup in digest format and this makes the digest very hard to read. DON'T bring up the band members' personal lives. It is NOT an appropriate subject for the newsgroup. DON'T post to the entire newsgroup when a direct email would be more appropriate. If you need to give someone a message that reads the newsgroup, don't post your message to them. If you want to get a band member a message, the newsgroup is NOT the place to post your message. DO use the "OT:" heading to mark off-topic subjects. Some people don't like to read non-Fruvous-related posts and just want album discussions, show reviews, tour dates, and the like. Using "OT:" in your headers marks off-topic posts so people can skip if they like. DO change the subject line if the thread has veered off to a different subject. Someone may not enjoy the original subject, but where you veer it off to may be something they'd like to read it. Many people choose which posts to read by the subject, so make the subject fit the body of your post. DO respect the other people in the newsgroup. There are people behind the text you are reading. Flaming someone publicly on the newsgroup is not a good thing. DON'T reply to troll posts. A troll in Usenet is defined as a person who makes an inflammatory post with no intent of starting meaningful conversation. The troll will usually sit back and watch the replies swarm in, including personal flame mail. This is exactly what the troll wants, so don't encourage them by giving it to them. Just let it be. DO limit the number of lines in your signature. An .sig over 5 lines is consider excessive by standard Usenet etiquette. Some people pay for bandwidth and having a 20 line signature at the end of each of your posts may seem like a good way of expressing who you are, it also is a waste of downloading for people who won't even read it. DON'T post binaries to the group. Binaries include pictures, soundfiles, etc. alt.music.moxy-fruvous is not a binaries group and many people do not want bandwidth hogging binaries to automatically come to them when they are trying to read the newsgroup. DON'T post with mime encryption or as HTML. Yes, you can be more fancy with HTML posts, but many people do not use HTML enabled newsreaders or email programs. They see your post as a lot of weird junk and probably won't bother reading it. DO read the FAQ. If it answers your questions, maybe you don't need to ask it again to the whole newsgroup just to get the same answer. It is hoped that the above list helps you get acclimated to the newsgroup quicker and prevents you from appearing like a fool in some peoples eye's with your first post. You don't have to have FDC memorized top to bottom to be a part of the newsgroup, but please try and follow some simple etiquette when posting and you will find the newsgroup a great resource for Fruvous information of all types. Appendix C - Common acronyms seen in alt.music.moxy-fruvous Fruvous fans are a bunch of hippies and geeks, really, and with that many geeks you know there are gonna be acronyms from here to eternity. Here's a list of common abbreviations and acronyms seen on a.m.m-f. If you have any additions, please email ammf-faq@fruhead.com. Songs - ----- BJ "BJ Don't Cry" (from _Bargainville_) B&B "Bed & Breakfast" (from _Wood_) GE&H, GE+H "Green Eggs & Ham" (from the indie tape) GMIA "The Greatest Man In America" (from _The B Album_) GWS "The Gulf War Song" (from _Bargainville_) ILMB "I Love My Boss" (from _The B Album_) ITC "It's Too Cold" (from _Wood_) IWHO "I Will Hold On" (from _Thornhill_) KITA "Kick In The Ass" (from _You Will Go To The Moon_) KoS, KOS "King Of Spain" (from nearly half the recordings) MBLABOA "My Baby Love A Bunch Of Authors" (from _Bargainville_) Michy "Michigan Militia" (from _You Will Go To The Moon_) MPG "My Poor Generation" (from _Thornhill_) PTT "The Present Tense Tureen" (from _Wood_) YCBTC "You Can't Be Too Careful" (From _Thornhill_) YNB "Your New Boyfriend" (from _You Will Go To The Moon_) YWGTTM The title track from _You Will Go To The Moon_ Usenet - ------ AFAIK As far as I know afmf alt.fan.moxy.fruvous, the evil stillborn twin of ammf ammf alt.music.moxy-fruvous BTW By the way FAQ Frequently asked questions list. FWIW For what it's worth FYI For your information IM[NS]HO In my (not so) humble opinion. Sometimes the 'H' is left out LOL Laughing out loud NG Newsgroup. In this case, ammf. OT Off-Topic. Not to be confused with On-Topic, which doesn't have an acronym ROFL Rolling on the floor laughing RTF Read the FAQ YMMV Your mileage may vary Groups - ------ BFF,BF5 Ben Folds Five BFF Bela Fleck and the Flecktones BNL Barenaked Ladies EFO Eddie From Ohio GBS Great Big Sea JBE Jim's Big Ego TMBG They Might Be Giants Venues - ------ BL The Bottom Line, in New York City IH The Iron Horse, in Northampton (NoHo), MA NoHo Northampton, MA, usually used as shorthand for the Iron Horse Troc The Trocadero in Philly, a place Fruvous will (hopefully) never play again Fruvous Miscellania - ------------------- Bville _Bargainville_, the first album FDC Fruvous Dot Com, or http://www.fruvous.com FHDC Fruhead Dot Com, or http://www.fruhead.com FRFF Falcon Ridge Folk Festival, in Hillsdale NY F&FFC Fruvous & Friends For Choice, the pretty annual Fruvous benefit for the Ontario Coalition of Abortion Clinics LBC Larry Boniface Clebdon, the.. er, thing on the cover of _Bargainville_ LN _Live Noise_, the fourth full-length album and only live release MF Moxy Fruvous, Murray Foster, or Mike Ford. MFHQ Moxy Fruvous Headquarters in Toronto ON NYE New Years Eve TO Toronto, where the Lads are from when the audience doesn't understand what _Thornhill_ was originally. TLA The Theatre of the Living Arts, a great venue in downtown Philadelphia WTG, WTGM, WTGD Way To Go, Way To Go Murray, Way To Go Dave YWGTTM _You Will Go To The Moon_, the third full-length album [Part 4/4] ------------------------------ End of alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V3 #734 ********************************************