From: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org (alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest) To: ammf-digest@smoe.org Subject: alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V3 #527 Reply-To: ammf@fruvous.com Sender: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest Saturday, June 26 1999 Volume 03 : Number 527 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: OT: Susan Werner [tsalyers@dimensional.com (Tom Salyers)] Susan Werner, Friendship Festival, etc. [Angie ] Re: The Vault show! (very long) [Lawrence P Solomon ] Re: huh? [luckydabed@aol.complexity (maria)] Re: huh? [Leah ] Friendship Festival [CheesemonkeyGem ] re: huh? [Blushooz@aol.com] Re: huh? ["Sam I Am" ] MF's Live Play Statistics (long) [arbF95@hamp.hampshire.edu (Amber Brown)] re: Uncle Bonsai, criticism, and Patrick [ytrecords@aol.com (YTRecords)] Re: Uncle Bonsai, criticism, and Patrick [scoper@netcom.com (Scott Persch] Re: total request live + Moxy [truztno1 ] Re: OMG! GUSTER!!! [jbardhan@demon.ceh.servtech.com (Neil Bardhan)] Re: MF's Live Play Statistics (long) [luckydabed@aol.complexity (maria)] Re: MF's Live Play Statistics (long) ["Sam I Am" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 10:33:49 -0600 From: tsalyers@dimensional.com (Tom Salyers) Subject: Re: OT: Susan Werner In article <7l2hjk$gfu$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>, kleahy@loyola.edu (KatieWow) says... > some of us think [Susan Werner] could be the fifth frü :). Hey, I'm all for that. It'd be equal time for us guys--we could post about how good Susan smells and all. ;) - -- Tom Salyers "Now is the Windows of our disk contents IRCnick: Aqualung Made glorious SimEarth by this Sun of Zork." Denver, CO --from _Richard v3.0_ http://www.dimensional.com/~tsalyers/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 17:05:09 GMT From: Angie Subject: Susan Werner, Friendship Festival, etc. Greetings all! hope everyone's having a good Saturday! 1) Josh Woodward announced: >Greetings, all! I'm happy to announce that Fruhead.Com's doors will be > open very soon! Fruhead.Com (FHDC) is a central location where the >Fruhead > community can interact in many different ways. The site is exclusively >for > Fruheads and about Fruheads. This sounds just too cool for words! Y'know... it also inspires me to play a little more with CorelDRAW!, since I'm teaching it again very soon... doubt I'll have something by next week but, oh well! 2) My Opinions on Susan Werner: I think she's very impressive as a performer. I was immediately hooked at her 2/20 performance FruCon weekend, and wish I could have stayed for the Sunday show! By all means, definitely go see her in concert! (I read a comment from Susan regarding her latest, Time Between Trains... she said it was parked on the corner of Joan Baez and Cassandra Wilson :^) ) 3) re Friendship Festival- well, the trip to Six Flags the day after. I mispoke on tix... the presales at Tops and Wilson Farms are $19.99, Chris and I are still going. Any takers? (I think the at-the-door prices are around $24.99) For you roller coaster fanatics like myself, I heard a review from a friend of the latest, called Superman, Ride of Steel... You're pulled about 80 stories high, then that's the last the chain controls the train... there's a moment as its flying that you feel like you're in zero G for 10 seconds!!! My friend Bob, who likes coasters said it was too much for him (which means I CAN'T WAIT!!!) I can't wait for the concert, and I can't wait to see all you Frü folk again! Some I haven't seen since FruCon! As far as bringing food and stuff to the Festival... mayhap save it for Darien Lake or something, I dunno... I think I'm too brainfried for planning. Tell mew what y'all wanna do :^) - --Angie, off to do some Garage Sale hoppin' They say that the Road to Hell is paved with good intentions... well, at least it will be a smooth ride - --me ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jun 1999 16:56:00 GMT From: Gruneberg Veronica J <6vjg@qlink.queensu.ca> Subject: Re: OMG! GUSTER!!! WEll, missed Guster yesterday evening :( Stupid work dictated that I couldn't get there until an hour after the concert started. However, 54-40, GBS and Blue Rodeo ROCKED!!!!! Wow... gorgeous concert... on the hill behid Fort Henry, looking out over Lake Ontario (which is actually pretty up at this end!:) Me happy now. And my room is unpakced, so my apartment no longer looks like a box factory gone horribly wrong! :) Veronica (waves from sunny (!!) Kingston) - -- *************************************************************************** "Never look at the trombones, | Veronica Gruneberg it only encourages them." | Dept. of Biology - Richard Strauss | Queen's University | Kingston, Ontario | ICQ#: 38114574 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 14:28:30 -0400 From: Lawrence P Solomon Subject: Re: The Vault show! (very long) Lori Martin wrote: > > Lawrence summarized: > > >I'd post more to this, but I can't think of what to say, and my brother > >is bugging me to get off the computer (it's frickin' 3:30 in the > >morning!) > > 3:30! 3:30 he complains about! well, it was more the idea that my brother wanted to use the computer, and my first thought was "Why would anyone want to log in at 3:30 in the morning?" until I realized that *I* was logged in at 3:30 in the morning... :) (oh, and for all the people who were at the Vault and thought the house music was way too loud after the show, I'll be posting "It's Too Loud" here as soon as I finish writing it :) "It's too loud... it's too hot... it's too dark..." :) - -- Lawrence Solomon http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~lps/ zaph@tmbg.org "Just because you're floating doesn't mean * This space inadvertently you haven't drowned." -They Might Be Giants * left with stuff in it. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jun 1999 19:31:36 GMT From: luckydabed@aol.complexity (maria) Subject: Re: huh? Andrea said: >People say "well you have to add a lot of >cream and sugar to it!" Sorry, I'm just not interested in >conditioning myself to drink something that I have to disguise to make >it palatable. Hey! That's how I got started on coffee, and now I like it. It's like eating certain vegetables when you're a baby. Then, when you grow older, you like them. Of course, you can always have the caffinated water. maria started drinking coffee at four ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^ You are now officially Lucky Dabbed! "*groan* Not the luckydab!" ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 16:17:31 EDT From: Leah Subject: Re: huh? On 26 Jun 1999, maria wrote: > Andrea said: > >People say "well you have to add a lot of > >cream and sugar to it!" Sorry, I'm just not interested in > >conditioning myself to drink something that I have to disguise to make > >it palatable. > > Hey! That's how I got started on coffee, and now I like it. It's like eating > certain vegetables when you're a baby. Then, when you grow older, you like > them. Of course, you can always have the caffinated water. > > > maria I think I'll stick to herbal tea... ah, how very chrunchy of me... Leah ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 22:11:21 GMT From: CheesemonkeyGem Subject: Friendship Festival yo all! ok, Katiewow has offered to bring me the Guster cd to buy from her when we are in ft erie, which poses a question for me: how will i know her? which poses another question for me: how the hell will i know any of you? for the record, at the RIT show in april i saw angie and mindy there (the former i recognized from her pic on FDC and the latter i recognized when someone cried out MINDY MUNSON?!?!?!? by the water fountain, but i was very new to the ng at that point so i didnt introduce myself). Anyhoo, i sincerely apologize for askin this, since i know we already had a "whos gonna be there?" thread, but if everyone who is going could drop me a private email and tell me someway i might recognize you (like a link to your pic or what you will wear or something), and ill get back with the same. Katie, i saw your pic on FDC too, so i hope i will recognize you by that. My pic is also there, but i look a bit different now, as that pic was taken more that two years ago. Cant wait for ft erie! get pumped! - -cheese the jenmonkey === Before you get in a fight with a person, walk 500 hundred miles in his shoes. That way you're 500 hundred miles ahead of him and you've got his shoes. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 23:56:42 GMT From: Blushooz@aol.com Subject: re: huh? >Coffee, Tea >or Me. The name alone makes it worth going to. The cake makes it worth can anyone tell me what movie that was from? i remember the line (can i get you anything? coffee, tea, me?) but can't rack my brain hard enough to figure out where it came from.please help! ~jess ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 19:53:45 -0400 From: "Sam I Am" Subject: Re: huh? Sorry all..gotta defend the Java.......how can you live without coffee??? I admit i used to despise it too! But now It's a life neccessity...it's got me...i can't live without it. I give whoever has tried it credit....but I'm just not the same person without my coffee. Can't live right....that and maybe it makes the severe lack of sleep possible. Welp...till l8r.... - -Sam- CheesemonkeyGem wrote in message <19990626052008.7876.rocketmail@web113.yahoomail.com>... > >maria said: >>>>To me >>>>it's like eating chocolate covered bugs or dried >>>>chocolate covered lima beans. No offense to those >>>>people who eat those things. > >Then me said: >>>and no offense to people who eat bugs too, right? > >then maria said: >>Yeah, and no offense to the fanatics of the chocolate >>covered lima beans, either. > >hehe, i was wondering if anyone was gonna say that :) > >-jen the cheeemonkey > > >=== >Before you get in a fight with a person, walk 500 hundred miles >in his shoes. That way you're 500 hundred miles ahead of him >and you've got his shoes. >_________________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jun 99 00:51:43 GMT From: arbF95@hamp.hampshire.edu (Amber Brown) Subject: MF's Live Play Statistics (long) Hi guys. This being my first post I figured I should enter with a bang and hopefully contribute to some meaningful discussion of the band. The following statistics give the frequency of play of each of their songs, including 23 shows from 4/9/99 to 6/24/99 based on the setlists at fruvous.com. I apologize in advance for any errors, but I think at most a song could only be off by one or two. And what, you may ask, is the point of this tremendous waste of time? Well, my thoughts are at the end. _21_ Johnny Saucep'n _20_ King of Spain Michigan Militia _18_ Horseshoes _16_ I Will Hold On _15_ Psycho Killer When She Talks _14_ Green Eggs and Ham Get in the Car _13_ Pisco Bandito River Valley You Will Go to the Moon _12_ If Only You Knew _11_ The Drinking Song The Present Tense Tureen _10_ My Baby Loves a Bunch of Authors My Poor Generation Jockey Full of Bourbon Half As Much Splatter Splatter Too Careful _9_ I Love My Boss _8_ B.J. Don't Cry Boo Time Independence Day _7_ Love Potion #9 Medley _6_ Fly Your New Boyfriend Sahara _5_ Sad Girl Dancing Queen Darlington Darling The Kid's Song _4_ I've Got to Get a Message to You Laika Minnie the Moocher _3_ Early Morning Rain Mistra Know-It-All _2_ Billie Jean Medley Bittersweet Down From Above The Greatest Man in America Kick in the Ass Spiderman Video Bargainville You Shook Me All Night Long Homeward Bound _1_ (not including some songs/improvs) Alison Ash Hash Brown Eyed Girl Gulf War Song Happy Together It's Too Cold Nuits de Reve Organ Grinder Poor Napoleon Substitute This Boy And last and apparently least: songs off the albums that have not been played in the past 23 concerts The Ballad of Cedrick Fruvous Bed and Breakfast Big Fish Entropy Fell in Love Gord's Gold The Incredible Medicine Show Jenny Washington Lazlo's Career Lazy Boy Lee Love Set Fire Misplaced Morphee No No Raja On Her Doorstep Poor Mary Lane Sad Today Stuck in the 90's I undertook this task because after attending 4 shows and reading countless reviews, I realized that Fruvous almost never plays my favorite songs. Can my taste really be that different from the band themselves, or the other fans? Out of that last list Stuck in the 90's, No No Raja, Lazy Boy, Lazlo's Career, Jenny Washington, Incredible Medicine Show, Fell in Love, and The Ballad of Cedrick Fruvous are all in my top 14. With Get in the Car (14), King of Spain (20), Your New Boyfriend (6), BJ Don't Cry (8), When She Talks (15), and I Will Hold On (16) rounding out my list. Sure, I'm thankful for what I've got, albums I love, and concerts I love even more but I can't help but sulk and say "what if?" Sorry if I'm stirring up trouble. I saw what happened last time someone critiqued as their first post ;) So my solution: More Variety. I know they have to play King of Spain and Johnny Saucep'n every time, but Michigan Militia? Horseshoes? surely fans don't _require_ these every concert. Well if everyone is allowed their two cents worth of input, I have surely gone _deep_ into debt with this post. Looking forward to hearing other's opinions, Amber ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jun 1999 00:35:10 GMT From: ytrecords@aol.com (YTRecords) Subject: re: Uncle Bonsai, criticism, and Patrick To Patrick, <> I guess I'll start by taking exception to some of this...Uncle Bonsai has been accused of a lot of things but taking the "easy road" isn't one of them. You think it's easy avoiding the mainstream? You think it's easy going to a new city and playing to a crowd that's only heard one novelty song? You think it's easy rhyming the word "hubrisly?" (Watch out...if you answer that last one, it turns into a trick question.) Also, I think that out of the 300 or so original songs that the group performed over the years, we actually managed to steer clear of the "cheap" laughs...not all the time, of course -- I'm sure you'll be able to pull out a number of examples -- but writing humor that bears repeating is by no means "easy." All that said, let's go through your list:   <<1. They both have dumb band names that were probably funny at one time>> Uh....all right...you might have a point with this one. I could argue and say that the name Uncle Bonsai was NEVER funny but that certainly wouldn't help. <<2. Both are far too chummy with geeky fans in the crowd>> I'm not sure....are you insulting ME for being too chummy or are you insulting my fans for being too geeky? And how does one define geeky? Is it that they pay for my CDs with Star Trek checks? Is that they can pull out one of my lesser lyrics ("leaping and lurching...etc." -- I guess I won't be putting THAT song on the new live CD) to try and make an argument? And what's wrong with being chummy? I mean, I'm in a strange town with nothing to do, once the show is done. All around me are people who either think like me, like what I do, or, at least, will buy me a drink. I make my living trying to entertain these people; there's the added goal of trying to get them to buy my recordings...should I ignore them? Lastly, my geeky friend (yes, I've seen your web site...computer this, programming that, science fair this, technical journals that...links so geeky and unselfconscious that only one of my fans could have put it all together) I'd be nicer to me if I were you...I still have the $17.50 you sent in advance for my new double CD! <<3. Look at their most-requested songs:       Uncle Bonsai "Boys Want Sex In the Morning">> "Boys Want Sex in the Morning" was not only NOT our most requested song, but it wasn't even our most "notorious." That would have to be "Penis Envy." Our most requested songs were "Suzy," "Bedroom Eyes," "Fat Boys," "Men and Women," and "Penis Envy." In addition, Uncle Bonsai did not perform "Boys Want...." or "Penis Envy" at all of our shows. In fact, we stopped performing both of "those" songs, with the odd exception, a couple of years before we broke up. (The "Myn Ynd Wymyn" release documents most of the songs we were performing the final years we were together. The "hits" that we continued to throw into the set, on occasion, were songs like "Billboard Love," "Suzy," "Fat Boys," and "Heartache.") <<4. Nice triple harmonies>> Oh, nice...throw us a bone. <<5. Acoustic rock>> Huh??? Where's the rock? Three high voices and an acoustic guitar? (If that was a compliment, never mind.) <<6. The "serious" side...exemplified by really obscure lyrics >> Hmm...with the exception of "Making Fun of Foreigners" I never really thought of our lyrics as obscure. I'm sure you can cite some examples, though. <<7. -> Small crowds <->> I guess this depends on what you consider small. We only played Boulder a couple of times and, like someone else mentioned in their bitter response to you on this list, it takes some time to develop a crowd. That said, Uncle Bonsai usually tried to play "appropriately sized" venues. When in New York, we would play The Bottom Line and sell out two shows. At one of the summer Zoo concerts in Seattle, we had 8,000 people. Ann Arbor..sold out the 2000 seat venue....New Hampshire, filled up a 65 seat restaurant! We played a "private" concert last August to record the new "Doug" album...we sold out in advance without advertising. At the Album Release Concerts/Reunion this past May, we sold out the two shows. For an easy-road-taking-cheap-laughs-bad-tag-lyric-novelty-song-obscure-lyric-wri ting-acoustic-rock-band...we did all right. Finally, after all is said and done, would it kill you to link to my home page? Andrew Ratshin Electric Bonsai Band/Uncle Bonsai c/o Yellow Tail Records ytrecords@aol.com www.yellowtailrecords.com www.unclebonsai.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 01:24:17 GMT From: scoper@netcom.com (Scott Perschke) Subject: Re: Uncle Bonsai, criticism, and Patrick Way to go, Andrew!!! Scott, a devoted Bonsai and Fruvous fan! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 20:58:23 -0400 From: truztno1 Subject: Re: total request live + Moxy from what's been going around on the X-Files newsgroup, people are going to be trying to get Bree Sharp's "DD" video aired on or after July 27th. since she's a relatively unknown artist also who does get some radio play, if the significant amount of X-Philes can pull it off, i think we could too. IF they pull it off. i'm not sure about new kids on the block because i lack cable, but the day after the thing, all my friends had told me that it did manage to air. who knows, the thing might have been just been a conspiracy to do a good PR job for one of the former NKOTB (joey what's his name or something like that, sorry if i'm wrong) actually, now that i think about it, after watching five eps of the X-Files almost straight in a row, i'm pretty sure that's what happened. : ) ~truztno1 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 01:25:38 GMT From: jbardhan@demon.ceh.servtech.com (Neil Bardhan) Subject: Re: OMG! GUSTER!!! On 26 Jun 1999 16:56:00 GMT, Gruneberg Veronica J <6vjg@qlink.queensu.ca> wrote: >However, 54-40, GBS and Blue Rodeo ROCKED!!!!! Wow... gorgeous concert... on >the hill behid Fort Henry, looking out over Lake Ontario (which is actually >pretty up at this end!:) Ack! Ack! OK, I was at this church thing last summer and for a morning energizer they played some really whacky song, by I _think_ Blue Rodeo. It was a big hit with the like ~1000 Canadians there, and some of us crazy Americans thought it was cool. I, of course, can't remember any lyrics if any. Kinda cowboyish, tho, but I dunno if that describes all their songs. Help? Neil Frücontent: Just listened to, um, some show's Gotta Get A Message Neil Bardhan: stage manager,tape trader,CTY Nevermore,Libertarian,and nice guy http://www.servtech.com/~jbardhan/ Smile at every person you see ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jun 1999 01:28:53 GMT From: luckydabed@aol.complexity (maria) Subject: Re: MF's Live Play Statistics (long) Welcome Amber, to the wonderful world of frü-posting! Don't forget to check out Früvous.com for all your früvous needs! Wait, nevermind, obviously you've already done that, so go there again! Some songs were left out, but geez, your the first person (I think?) who has ever done such a thing as figure out how many times Früvous has played songs. The thing is, *we* (the fans) don't pick out the setlists, the band does. Some people wouldn't mind doing away with some of the "staples" of the shows, but they're something you can always count on. It also makes the less played songs more special when you get to hear them. People are always being defrugenized at concerts, so they need a chance to hear things too. But I agree, some songs could be a little more and less played. Over on alt.music.tmbg some people are complaining they went to two concerts in four (?) months that were almost exactly the same. I think somebody else mentioned here that they knew somebody who went to two BNL concerts that were exactly the same. So at least be happy for some variety. Okay, enough of my rant. maria contributing my two cents worth....ON topic this time! that's a first! ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^ You are now officially Lucky Dabbed! "*groan* Not the luckydab!" ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 21:19:33 -0400 From: "Sam I Am" Subject: Re: MF's Live Play Statistics (long) I'll agree with that. I havn't been to too many shows but I've noticed the same things.....there are some songs I would like to hear rather than the crowd pleasers. But I always do have a great time. But, this is only my opinion. If one of the members read this maybe it can be brought to their attention. Like On Her Doorstep....i'd love to hear that in concert....or It's Too Cold...I've heard a live version of one of these from '96 and it's awesome. - -Sam- Amber Brown wrote in message <3775759f.0@news>... >Hi guys. This being my first post I figured I should enter with a bang and >hopefully contribute to some meaningful discussion of the band. The >following statistics give the frequency of play of each of their songs, >including 23 shows from 4/9/99 to 6/24/99 based on the setlists at >fruvous.com. I apologize in advance for any errors, but I think at most a >song could only be off by one or two. And what, you may ask, is the point >of this tremendous waste of time? Well, my thoughts are at the end. > >_21_ >Johnny Saucep'n > >_20_ >King of Spain >Michigan Militia > >_18_ >Horseshoes > >_16_ >I Will Hold On > >_15_ >Psycho Killer >When She Talks > >_14_ >Green Eggs and Ham >Get in the Car > >_13_ >Pisco Bandito >River Valley >You Will Go to the Moon > >_12_ >If Only You Knew > >_11_ >The Drinking Song >The Present Tense Tureen > >_10_ >My Baby Loves a Bunch of Authors >My Poor Generation >Jockey Full of Bourbon >Half As Much >Splatter Splatter >Too Careful > >_9_ >I Love My Boss > >_8_ >B.J. Don't Cry >Boo Time >Independence Day > >_7_ >Love Potion #9 Medley > >_6_ >Fly >Your New Boyfriend >Sahara > >_5_ >Sad Girl >Dancing Queen >Darlington Darling >The Kid's Song > >_4_ >I've Got to Get a Message to You >Laika >Minnie the Moocher > >_3_ >Early Morning Rain >Mistra Know-It-All > >_2_ >Billie Jean Medley >Bittersweet >Down From Above >The Greatest Man in America >Kick in the Ass >Spiderman >Video Bargainville >You Shook Me All Night Long >Homeward Bound > >_1_ >(not including some songs/improvs) >Alison >Ash Hash >Brown Eyed Girl >Gulf War Song >Happy Together >It's Too Cold >Nuits de Reve >Organ Grinder >Poor Napoleon >Substitute >This Boy > >And last and apparently least: songs off the albums that have not been >played in the past 23 concerts > >The Ballad of Cedrick Fruvous >Bed and Breakfast >Big Fish >Entropy >Fell in Love >Gord's Gold >The Incredible Medicine Show >Jenny Washington >Lazlo's Career >Lazy Boy >Lee >Love Set Fire >Misplaced >Morphee >No No Raja >On Her Doorstep >Poor Mary Lane >Sad Today >Stuck in the 90's > >I undertook this task because after attending 4 shows and reading >countless reviews, I realized that Fruvous almost never plays my favorite >songs. Can my taste really be that different from the band themselves, or >the other fans? Out of that last list Stuck in the 90's, No No Raja, Lazy >Boy, Lazlo's Career, Jenny Washington, Incredible Medicine Show, Fell in >Love, and The Ballad of Cedrick Fruvous are all in my top 14. With Get in >the Car (14), King of Spain (20), Your New Boyfriend (6), BJ Don't Cry >(8), When She Talks (15), and I Will Hold On (16) rounding out my list. > >Sure, I'm thankful for what I've got, albums I love, and concerts I love >even more but I can't help but sulk and say "what if?" Sorry if I'm >stirring up trouble. I saw what happened last time someone critiqued as >their first post ;) > >So my solution: More Variety. I know they have to play King of Spain and >Johnny Saucep'n every time, but Michigan Militia? Horseshoes? surely fans >don't _require_ these every concert. > >Well if everyone is allowed their two cents worth of input, I have surely >gone _deep_ into debt with this post. > >Looking forward to hearing other's opinions, >Amber > ------------------------------ End of alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V3 #527 ********************************************