From: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org (alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest) To: ammf-digest@smoe.org Subject: alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V3 #492 Reply-To: ammf@fruvous.com Sender: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest Monday, June 14 1999 Volume 03 : Number 492 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: concert review [Chad Maloney ] Re: Milwaukee Setlist [jimcclur@ews.uiuc.edu (Jordan I. K. McClure)] Re: Criticism: Lyric tags [Chad Maloney ] Re: the war on patrick [Chad Maloney ] Re: You've inspired a post from me, congratulations :) [McCown ] Re: hockey, clarenden, and bdays :) [Gruneberg Veronica J <6vjg@qlink.q] the vault and the abyss [Ellen ] ESP and 'XPN [llesi@aol.com (Llesi)] Re: You've inspired a post from me, congratulations :) ["Sam I Am" ] Re: Calling down the Thunder (this is LONG) [Ellen Subject: Re: concert review Kellogg Patrick Layne wrote: > And when somebody > heckled "Nice try" to a joke that didn't quite work, > someone (Murray?) said "I don't knock the sailors cocks > out of your mouth while you're working". Um, wow. > That's crankier and meaner that anything I've said on > the board. I thought that was the funniest line from the review that said it first. I was really glad someone remembered it and put it in their review. Gave me a good laugh. I would guess Murray didn't say that though. Maybe Mike or Jian. And I'm almost sure it was just humour, with a hint of "Why the hell are you yelling shit out in the middle of our show?" mixed in. - Chad ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jun 1999 15:43:11 GMT From: jimcclur@ews.uiuc.edu (Jordan I. K. McClure) Subject: Re: Milwaukee Setlist Trace (trace@frumail.org) wrote: : : >E2: : >I Will Hold On : >Poor Generation : : Hmm, they closed with MPG? Interesting. How did that work as a : closer for you Jordan? I'm curious. Yeah I thought it was a great way to end the evening. Even Mike's missing the fret for the capo on the electric guitar and not noticing until the first big chord a verse into the song caused only a mild cringe and didn't spoil the mood. Given the smallish crowd and the fact that most were sitting down, it didn't feel like a Drinking Song night and it appears the band agreed. On a more general note, though, I do think it is a bit strange for a band to close with brand new songs, but it did seem a perfect choice. jordan - -- Fnord is the whole donut. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 09:56:31 -0500 From: Chad Maloney Subject: Re: Criticism: Lyric tags Kellogg Patrick Layne wrote: > What's up with the little tag lines the boys sing before or > after some of their songs? It's a song writing device. Repetition is used a lot in songs to get your point across. Yeah, sometimes it drives me up the wall. A lot of songs that have story being told in the chorus do that to me too because everytime the chorus comes up, I'm dragged backwards in the story of the song. Some of my favorite songs just don't even have a chorus *grin* But repetition can really drive something home, especially in political songs. It can also get stuff stuck in your head. As to why Fruvous uses it in songs, I'd guess it's because it adds to the song. Whether it adds to the song or not is up to each individual to decide. To me, sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. Quite honestly, the words to Michigan Militia don't get much attention because I'm grooving with the bass/kit the whole time. I don't get the actual song itself much at all, but hey, it's got good music! > I get the feeling that the band repeats the harmonies simply > because THEY CAN. Because they have the parts already in their > heads, and they can end the song on a full four-part hit. > However, it makes for a really odd ending. To put a stronger > word than "odd" I'd say it's a horrible ending, and the song would be > a lot better without it. Fade out instead. Play a chord. Anything > but end the song with a prepostional phrase. In my opinion, Fruvous has always been week on endings to things. They want a closure to the song and sometimes repeating the theme, putting a cap on it and sending it out the door, is what does it. There have been so many decent improvs that come out sound bad as a whole because after about 4 or 5 minutes when it should end no one could end it so they just kept going and going and going. > "You Will Go To the Moon" also has an annoying tag... "orbiting > rondel". To me, the Orbiting Rhondelle bit does 2 things. - - Says "Hey Acapella coming! We can sing!" - - Allows them to sync up with each others pitches and get hearing so they can perform the rest of the song. Number 1 isn't really important I guess. Number 2 is damn important because they gotta get together somehow. Sometimes it's coming gradually (Kick in the Ass) and building on the song as each comes in in tune. Other times they just sorta try it (I Love My Boss). Other times it's because they have done the song so many times it's hard to get wrong (Piece of Mind, King of Spain). YWGTTM uses the opening chords to get together and then takes off. - Chad ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 11:02:43 -0500 From: Chad Maloney Subject: Re: the war on patrick dopeytoo wrote: > am i the only one who thinks this is the most interesting thing that's > come along in a while? ....oh, never mind then :) Nope. I think it's pretty interesting too. And on topic which is nice. I could do without all the side insults in some of the posts, but the actual content is pretty good thinking to me. And it's 11am and I haven't done any work at all. What a great Monday morning! - Chad ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 17:02:19 GMT From: McCown Subject: Re: You've inspired a post from me, congratulations :) > > "Darlington Darling" from _Bargainville_ > > but you'll never find the right bijou > I'll pull one of your tricks here... definition of bijou according to > webster's unabridged is a word applied to anything small and of > elegant workmanship. Is it the best lyric in the world? no. It's it > going to cause world peace? no. Does it fit? sure. It fits better > than 'sports!' does :-) Hmm...my mom and I were talking about this the other day (my mom: "What does that *mean*?"), and what I always sort of thought was that bijou in French means "jewel" and I always assumed that it meant engagement ring. Anyway, who knows? love Lizzie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 10:57:42 -0500 From: Chad Maloney Subject: Re: Criticism: bad lyrics (long) Kellogg Patrick Layne wrote: > I'm dealing, I'm dealing. It's not like I'm staying up nights not sleeping. On the > Yes album "Tales From Topographic Oceans", Jon Anderson sings "Mountains > come down from the sky and STAND THERE". It's such a bad lyric, it makes me > giggle. Worse, the STAND THERE is performed in sixteen part double-tracked > harmony, kind of like the "aaaah"s in Queen's theme to Flash Gordon. It's > pretentious, but kind or cool and original at the same time. Dare to > be silly! It's ok by me... Great, now I'm defending Yes. What's wrong with personification of the mountains? I love personification. It's one of my favorite literary devices. I love that lyric you stated as being bad just because of the STAND THERE part. It personifies the mountains and to me that's cool. Like Fly personifying the Rollercoaster (in my head at least *grin*). > >make us out to be such losers, when we are actually good people Now, what is > > Hey, I would never say all Moxy fans are losers. I *definitely* don't think that. > On a lighter note, on the Live album, a whole crowd cheered at being called > losers. Think of that. What of it? > >with all your negative posts? I may be wrong, but only one of your posts > >hasn't been negative. It was the one regarding tickets still being available > >for the Boulder show. Would it hurt you so much to post something nice? First > >impressions die hard, but in my opinion, you seem to enjoy stirring things up > >and creating controversy. > > Ok, ok, "The band rocks". Ah, let's see "Live Noise" is a really good CD. "wood" > is a good CD. "Bargainville is a good CD". Here's one... "You Will Go To the Moon" > is a good CD. "The 'b' Album" is a good CD", and "the indie tape is a good tape". > "The boys can sure play their instruments" and "they sure sing good". Do you see a lot of post like these on the newsgroup? I don't. Maybe I don't read the right posts though. Or I gloss over those posts really fast because they aren't saying anything. Did you lurk for awhile before posting to see what kind of culture the newsgroup has? - Chad ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jun 1999 16:44:17 GMT From: llesi@aol.com (Llesi) Subject: PFF facts (was Yes--Camp at PFF) After reading the posts on camping etc. at the Philadelphia Folk Festival, I feel like I have to clear up a few things. Credentials: I'm the Editor of the volunteers' newsletter for the PFF, my dad is the Chairman and one of the founders of the whole festival, I've worked in the ticket office several summers, and I've gone to the Festival every year for all of my 30 years (except one year when I was 7 and there was a huge electrical storm, but that's another story!). Myth #1: There are no motels nearby. There's a Holiday Inn (OK, not really a motel, but not exactly the Ritz-Carlton either) 10 minutes from the Festival site in Kulpsville, and a budget motel directly across the street from this (I forget the name). There are some b&bs nearby, and some hotel/motels about 20 minutes away. Call the Festival office at 1-800-556-FOLK and ask for the Vally Forge Visitor's Bureau number (I think that's what it's called), where they have all the info. Myth #2: There is no dancing at the PFF. There is the dancing that Bobbie mentioned, which is general dancing (there's a whole area dedicated just to dancing). Chad's comment is true: you can't just get up and dance if you're sitting in the middle of the general seating area, but you can go to the bottom of the hill to either side of the stage and dance there, as long as you're not blocking anyone's view and you're not in a fire lane (if you are the Security people will ask you to move). Myth #3: You have to leave from 6-7:30 and go to your car. The grounds are closed from 6-7 p.m. so that there can be a distinction made between people who have daytime-only tix and people who have evening-only tix, and so the volunteers can clean up the mess left by the daytime crowd; this also gives people who had really crummy seats during the day to try to get better seats for the evening. During that time you do have to pick up your belongings and leave the Festival grounds, but you can wait just outside the main gate if you want...they sell food there and the dance stage is there (though I'm not sure anything actually goes on from 6-7). Anyway, the afternoon concert ends at 6, so by the time you pack up your stuff and head with the crowd out the main gate, it's probably more like only 45 minutes that you have to wait around (we've all waited that long between sets at other concerts!!). The grounds open up at 7, and the evening concert starts at 7:30. Myth #4: The PFF is not safe. The PFF is just about the safest place I've ever been in my life. Kids can wander unaccompanied all day and not worry their parents. Even at night. Part of what comes with the territory of being the largest and longest-running general folk festival in the country is having a large, 24-hour, well-organized Security committee. Yes, there probably have been some isolated drug-related incidents, but that leads me to: Myth #4: The PFF campgrounds are wrought with drug activity. There is a STRICT no-drugs policy at the PFF. Now, I know as well as anyone else that it's very difficult to enforce such a rule. However, in the last few years there has been a MAJOR push towards actually enforcing the no-drugs policy, and each year there is less drug activity than the year before. It seems to me that if there happen to be people ignoring the drug rules you don't have to be affected by them if you stay with your own friends or group. As for the differing opinions on camping, all I can say is that yes, it's crowded, no, there aren't showers or flush-toilets (but there is running water from faucets), and no, it's not exactly like camping in nature if that's what you're looking for. There are thousands of people who camp every year and LOVE it, and there are thousands more who have never camped, will never camp, and shudder at the mere mention of camping at the PFF. No, PFF is not FRFF. However, our attendance increases every year, so something must be good; besides, this will be our THIRD time hosting Fruvous in 5 years ('95, '97, '99)! The negative comments I heard from the Fruheads after the '97 Festival were literally the first complaints I'd ever heard about the Festiva, and from what I could tell they were the result of a combination of comparing PFF to FRFF and inexperience with folk festivals in general. Sure, we receive occasional letters complaining about one thing or another, but the positive feedback we receive far outweighs the negative. I'm sure that if people go to PFF and don't expect it to be like smaller festivals they'll have a perfectly pleasant experience. Just wanted to clear up the facts for you all! Jessica Baskin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 10:51:57 -0500 From: Chad Maloney Subject: Re: Criticism: bad lyrics (long) Kellogg Patrick Layne wrote: > Instead, the Moxy lyrics that bother me are the ones > that don't quite fit. The ones that seem forced and > detract from the song. The ones that make the band > seem less than polished, like a political folk > quartet (like The Foremen or Mark Russell). Um... one of the hats they wear is that of a political folk quartet. What of it? [Horseshoes chorus] > Somewhere, there's somebody who loves this song. "Oh, > man... you don't get it... they're *horseshoes" and > they've just *gotta* be tossed." Yeah, yeah, it's a > metaphor for loss, for decay, but it strikes me > as trying to be profound without actually being > profound. There's probably a fan that's brought > a horseshoe to a concert for them to sign. I love the song. It's a good song. Nice story telling in the lyrics. Decent message underneath that isn't completely stated. Good imaging. All in all, a decent piece from early on in Fruvous's musical lives. Good bass part and nice musical swells. A good all out package of a song really. I guess my only problem with this Patrick, is that it is pure opinion on your part. Aren't there enough songs that you like that counteract the occasional weak lyric? Just the bass fill before the second verse counteracts the chorus of Horseshoes for me. What do you want them to be singing? Exactly what they mean? Instead they use a semi-profound metaphor that may be lost on some people. [Lazlo] > Who is Lazlo? Lazlo is a small sprite that follows the Frubus around. The little sprite really knows how to have a good time. The amount of pot it would take for you to actually meet Lazlo is probably dependant on your weight and what kind of pot tolerance you've worked up in your daily life. Meet Lazlo at your own risk. > Who is B.J.? Well, I've heard BJ be a lot of things. The meaning of BJ has been a really really long running joke. I've heard tell of it being about baby Jesus, a fishboy, or blow jobs. At the October 30th 1999 NoHo show, they told a great story about BJ and Rachel which the song semi-fit also. > Some fan who is in the pocket > of the band might convince me that the song would > mean more to me if I knew Lazlo personally. It's snide comments like this that make you seem like an asshole, Patrick, just so you know. > know to somebody I've never met. The "groovy" > and "effevesense" lines are typical Moxy: they > probably looked good on paper, but sound > terrible when sung. The words used setup who Lazlo is. Effervescence. Groovy. They are decent descriptive adjectives that put you in a mind set. Are you gonna describe a corporate lawyer in a suit as groovy? Nope. But Lazlo is the kind of guy you'd describe that way. The adjectives used are to setup a character around Lazlo. [River Valley] > This is the kind of lyric that makes right-wing people > make fun of liberals. Heart-felt? Probably. Bathetic? > (Webster's says "insincere or overdone pathos") > Definitely. While Billy's agonizing over socialism vs. > the Greens, Bob Dornan is ordering more bombers. > Boy George said "I'll tumble for ya", and it was a > better lyric when he sang it. What? Not making sense now. River Valley is a politcal song in much the same way Bragg writes. Political songs ask questions and make you think about their subject matter and that is what the song is doing. Just because someone is too dead set in their ways to even consider considering the questions doesn't invalidate the lyrics. > "Fell In Love" from _Bargainville_ > How many eggs make up a pound? > How many ears of corn in the niblets? > And how big was the bag? > > (snotty comment) > 12? 4? Pretty big? Best song on Bargainvile here. Context will shoot your argument in the head completely here. Read the whole lyric and this stuff is great. > Like people who think Ben Folds Five's song > "Brick" is a love song Um, no. Teenage Abortion really. Completely totally not a love song. Incomprehensible that a slow slow be popular when it's not a love song or what? [Drinking Song] >[...], I think > you're a bit off if you put your arms > around each other and sway to the beat. > (and I've been guilty of it, too) > Truly thinking about this song makes > me think "Ick. Bummer. Sucks to be him." Wow, what a caring soul you are, Patrick. I put my arms around my friends and sway during the song. I hold people around me who have travelled a long way to see the show because they are my good friends that I've met because of the band. The Drinking Song to me is about friendship, the times spent together good and terrible and how it makes things whole. Call me cushy, cheesy or whatever. When I'm standing in a packed cold rainy barn in Asheville North Carolina with one of my Indiana arms around Chris Traugott from right outside Washington DC and another around Andi Fitzer from Louisville Kentucky listening to a band we really all enjoy, playing the end to a set we just drove a long distance to hear I'm introspecting and appreciating my friend for experiencing this whole thing with me. If you'd like to poke fun at that, go ahead, but I'd say that you are missing something from your friendships because of it. [Laika] > The "BAND PLAYING HAIL TO THE CHIEF" > rattles around at the end of the song... > another meaningless "tag line". I still can't > quite figure out why Moxy like ending > songs on a sour note Oooh. This one is very meaningful. That last line shows how in the name of patriotism and nationalism a country will spend kagillions of bucks to kill a dog. Another good song and a great one live. Patrick, all in all, I think you take too much a microscope to things. You have GOT to me a glass is half empty person. If you don't like the fans, don't pay them heed. Don't let your enjoyment of something depend on the fans. If someone wants to carry a hamster wheel around to places, who cares? Is the hamster wheel in your way? Allergic to them? If someone else has a good time because they carry the hamster wheel around who are you condemn them into freakitude, hmm? And don't expect all lyrics to be 100%. Some are pretty bad[1] in my opinion. Be happy that a majority of the lyrics are excellent and be happy. If you'd like to bring up a discussion of a particular lyrics, please don't post a big huge post. Just post a lyric and get discussion about it in the context of the song. More people will play along nicely and you'll get a lot better idea of what the song and lyric in particular means to a large variety of people. I think you'd find many songs hit on chords in people here and mean a lot more than just what the words mean on the paper or the CD. - Chad [1] What is Pisco's favorite thing to rob? They say he likes Apple Strudel. What does he do when not on the job? On the guitar noodle. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 17:20:01 GMT From: McCown Subject: Re: Just Wondering Who's Going To Croton/NYC &/or Boston Fleadh deb said: > yeppers, see title. I wanna know who's planning to go where and if > anyone wants to meet up. simple yes, but Boston's a week from > tomorrow!!!!!!!!! I'm gonna see them again! YAY! Lori I know I'm > seeing @ Croton and me! i am psyched! and dar is gonna be there too! yay! not to mention that i just got our hotel reservations for our trip to toronto, so i will be there for the 7/11 show. more excitement! :) love, Lizzie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 11:19:01 -0500 From: Chad Maloney Subject: Re: Milwaukee Setlist Trace wrote: > > On 14 Jun 1999 15:08:34 GMT, jimcclur@ews.uiuc.edu (Jordan I. K. > McClure) wrote: > > >E2: > >I Will Hold On > >Poor Generation > > > > Hmm, they closed with MPG? Interesting. How did that work as a > closer for you Jordan? I'm curious. They closed with My Poor Generation (best Fruvous song there is[1]) at Syracuse also. I really really enjoyed it. Though a lot of people were mad about it because it wasn't Drinking Song or Gulf War Song, it really went well and closed the show nicely kinda like Early Morning Rain does as the last encore. - Chad [1] A bit of "to the side" opinion for you there *grin* ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jun 1999 17:21:53 GMT From: Gruneberg Veronica J <6vjg@qlink.queensu.ca> Subject: Re: hockey, clarenden, and bdays :) It depends on the province. In Ontario at least, (and Quebec and Nova Scotia, to the best of my knowledge) Valid ID is considered to be only photo id. That means your driver's license mainly, but your passport of new Ontario photo health card will do as well. Age of majority cards are virtually unheard of now, and really hard to come by. Even if you do, they're rarely accepted 'cause they're the easiest to fake. Some provinces have "Will be 19 on _____" right one the card, but most leave the math up to the person asking for id. Really, all that's important is that you have a government issued piece of id that has a birthdate that makes you of leagl age, and your photo (or one that looks enough like you to pass in the dark. NOt that I would know anything about that! :) :) Veronica - -- *************************************************************************** "Never look at the trombones, | Veronica Gruneberg it only encourages them." | Dept. of Biology - Richard Strauss | Queen's University | Kingston, Ontario | ICQ#: 38114574 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 16:31:53 GMT From: Ellen Subject: the vault and the abyss first, in response to lori's question about whether the vault is "bigger than a unitarian church," i am guessing that what lori really wanted to know is, does it hold more people than the place we saw them at in DE last novemeber. in which case, i'd have to say hell yeah. it's bigger than that. the 9:30 club has a capacity of about 1200, right? i'm guessing the vault would hold maybe half that. but the DE show was only something like 200, IIRC. In article <3761BD4E.E984EAB2@radix.net>, chad schrock wrote: > (Actually, take a change of clothes, and stay at a hotel that > night most of the way back, then just go to work from there.) > > hmmm, that's actually a good idea.... when is this show again? :) i'm working on a plan right this very minute. let me know if you're interested. peace, ellen *************************************************** I spoke about wings; you just flew I wondered, I guessed and I tried; you just knew Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jun 1999 17:34:56 GMT From: llesi@aol.com (Llesi) Subject: ESP and 'XPN Just this morning I was thinking, "golly, it's been a while since I've listened to YWGTTM--I wanna hear Message (the funky version) and Boyfriend!" so I brought the tape in my car and very happily listened on my way to work...and WXPN is right at this very second playing Message!!!! Weird! (But awesome of course!) Jessica Baskin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 13:50:25 -0400 From: "Sam I Am" Subject: Re: You've inspired a post from me, congratulations :) Very true...it's in the Halifax ver of the song. Very early fruvous. " Burned up on re-entry". aprestin@ccs.neu.garbage.edu wrote in message <7k27bg$ldt$1@isn.dac.neu.edu>... >Kevin Way wrote: > >[snip] > >: Because Laika is a song about the dog, Laika, that the Russians sent up >: into space and surprise, surprise, left her there. So the last point made >: was that the band was playing hail to the chief, that the nation was so >: happy about this, but really all they'd done was find a really expensive >: and exotic way to starve a dog to death. > >Not to be pedantic (in this newsgroup? never!), but I think Laika burned >up on re-entry, rather than starved to death. Dog-kebabs, anyone? > >- A.P. > >-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 12:58:29 -0500 From: Joshua Doell Drury Subject: Re: hockey, clarenden, and bdays :) Nicole the Wonder Nerd wrote: > > Just puzzled... I have a photo ID[1] that has my birthdate and "Age 21 > in 1998" writ large upon it. Does Canada not have such? It seems > like a far simpler solution than the Byzantine system of valid/invalid > ID that you describe. Not exactly. The age 21 is absolutely irrelevant in Canada (so my 21st birthday on Sunday will be similarly inconsequential), but I know that at least in my province (Manitoba), driver's licenses have the year you turn 18 on them unless you've already tuned 18 when you got your license. And you can also get an identification card from the Liquor Control Commission, if you don't have a license. Josh Drury Winnipeg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 16:49:17 GMT From: Ellen Subject: Re: Criticism: bad lyrics (long) In article , LuCkYDaBeD@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/14/99 1:03:12 AM Central Daylight Time, > kelloggp@nagita.cs.colorado.edu writes: > > > I *am* trying to cut down on the number of posts I've been sending > I, personally have no problem with you posting. i agree with maria. at least you're talking about the band. and not the band's deodorant, either. ;) you *do* lose credibility when you insult the very people you are posting to, under the guise of criticism of a show. you have to expect some negative response to that. but some of the comments that i've seen directed back at you were utterly uncalled-for and i'm sorry you had to see that side of this ng. heads up, people. it doens't make you look any more intelligent to say, "oh yeah? well *you're* an even BIGGER spaz!" it just makes you look like a whiny kid. peace, ellen *************************************************** i need a new .sig... Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 17:01:29 GMT From: Ellen Subject: Re: Calling down the Thunder (this is LONG) In article <19990613183325.25744.qmail@ww182.netaddress.usa.net>, Angie Armstrong wrote: > Well, here we > have our first critical review that didn't rave about how great the > show was... just a little nitpick... i wouldn't say that. while i haven't seen any reviews that actually said, "this show sucked," i have seen quite a few where the reviewer was not shy about saying that this show lacked cohesiveness, or that one was riddled with technical problems, or this night, the guys just didn't seem to have the energy. the difference this time, i think, is that this one came from someone who wasn't a ng regular. let's face it, we're a lot more likely to be accepting of a "this show wasn't up to par," if it comes from Chad. because we know he knows what he's talking about. perhaps patrick's biggest problem was that he didn't first make himself known as a worthy contributor. ;) quick, someone send him one of those "netiquette" guides. peace, ellen (feeling a bit cheeky this monday AM) *************************************************** I spoke about wings; you just flew I wondered, I guessed and I tried; you just knew Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ------------------------------ End of alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V3 #492 ********************************************