From: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org (alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest) To: ammf-digest@smoe.org Subject: alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V3 #485 Reply-To: ammf@fruvous.com Sender: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest Sunday, June 13 1999 Volume 03 : Number 485 Today's Subjects: ----------------- one more thing... [truztno1 ] Ocean City Concert and Thornhill questions [mj ] Re: boulder show review [kelloggp@nagita.cs.colorado.edu (Kellogg Patric] OT-New William Shatner movie ["Zainab" ] scratch question #5 [truztno1 ] Re: OT: EFO or Arrogant Worms [Gruneberg Veronica J <6vjg@qlink.queensu.] Re: Ocean City Concert and Thornhill questions ["KatieWow" ] Re: OT-New William Shatner movie [remcoat@aol.com (REMcoat)] Re: Ocean City Concert and Thornhill questions [truztno1 ] Re: TACT--->A WORKING DEFINITION (was Re: boulder show review) [kelloggp@] Re: boulder show review [kelloggp@nagita.cs.colorado.edu (Kellogg Patric] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 14:49:03 -0400 From: truztno1 Subject: one more thing... don't send any e-mails to mjang@idt.net!!!!! (it's never checked, and it's not my account anyway!) u can send stuff to tigger246@hotmail.com ~truztno1 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 14:46:03 -0400 From: mj Subject: Ocean City Concert and Thornhill questions hey, are there any dudes (or dudettes : ) ) out there who can answer these questions? 1. Anyone know how long it takes to drive from central jersey down to Ocean City? 2. random guess as to how long the OC concert's gonna last? (sorry, this is my first concert, I'm soooooo psyched up about it!!!!!) 3. anyone who's been down to the music pier, is it like stadium seating, or just rows of chairs set up, one behind another, meaning it's damn important to get good tickets early? 4. is it general seating, meaning you have to get down there as early a u can, or the tickets tell u exactly where u sit? 5. i know "gingee" mentioned in a 6/3 posting that tickets would go on sale in a week.... my calendar tells me that it's already been a week, and FDC still says that they're not on sale yet...what's up w/ that? 6. is there any way to get tickets other than by calling the number? (off the web, through ticketmaster, etc.) 7. Does anyone know a store chain in the U.S (like sam goody, borders, etc.) that will most likely have Thornhill? (yeah, i know i could probably buy it at the concert if i wait 6 days, but still....) alrighty, sorry if i've bored anyone's poor brains out with my stupid questions, i'd appreciate any response!!!! ~truztno1 ____________________________________________________________________________ Microsoft: "Where do you want to be dragged today?" Do you really want to go there? Punkass.- Frohike Byers:...He’s being put into power by the most heinous and evil force of the 20th century. Mulder: Barney? ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 1999 13:28:55 -0700 From: kelloggp@nagita.cs.colorado.edu (Kellogg Patrick Layne) Subject: Re: boulder show review From Bridget: >Is it JUST me, or is anyone else out there wondering HOW a band can >be 'too chummy'? patrick, maybe you prefer a 'holier than thou' attitude >when it comes to entertainers. or maybe it's just geek envy. well, to each >his own, eh? Yeah, I was kind of out of line there. I just got this creepy Star Trek vibe when somebody brings Kraft Macaroni and Cheese or a hamster wheel to a concert. I know you're having fun, but get a life. >i thought the turnout was pretty good for a thursday night at a small club >in a state where the band gets ZERO airplay... far more than the 200 people >you estimated in an earlier post. the place was rocking, and had there BEEN >only 200 people there, it would have been FAR more sparse than it was. call >me crazy, but the place looked pretty full to me! I counted 176 as the show started. Maybe a few more walked in later, but I doubt it. From Lawrence P Solomon: >I really hope this was just a troll, but I'm taking the bait anyway... >because it bugs me. No, not trolling. It's called *an opinion*. C'mon, you must have them from time to time... >> Yeah, thanks... but I was kinda *slamming* Uncle Bonsai. My point >> was that like Moxy Fruvy, Uncle Bonsai took the easy road by >> writing too many songs with cheap laughs. >> >> 1. They both have dumb band names that were probably funny at one time >that's so wondefully objective. I'm glad you think that your opinion of >what's dumb and what isn't happens to be the globally accepted on, too. I don't get it... it was objective, wasn't it? Heck, at the show, even THE BAND made a joke about having a name that was hard to spell. The quote was something like, "Oh, yeah, that was a great idea of ours" (to name the band Moxy Fruvous) repeated by the guitarist in a sarcastic tone. You have to admit it's the dumbest name for a band since "Toad the Wet Sprocket" watched Monty Python. Don't you? Hmmm, guess not. You made a good comment about They Might Be Giants also having a novelty-type of feeling with "Particle Man". I'm tempted to add a lot of folk artists: Loudon Wainwright III, Cheryl Wheeler, Trout Fishing in America, The Roches. Yeah, I was stretching it about 3 vs. 4 part harmonies, but you get the point I was trying to make - Moxy is almost like the Smothers Brothers Barbershop Quartet. >a lot of what you're saying I've also seen people say about They Might >Be Giants (my other favorite band), and really, it shows that you don't >really know or care what the band is really about. which makes me >wonder why i bothered responding... I guess just because I felt like >posting. :) Don't you get a feeling that TMBG gets kind of tired of that one hit single? Ok, they also had minor hits with "Istanbul", "Birdcage", "Ana NG", and maybe "Spinning", but none of those songs win them the Leonard Cohen award for deep lyrics. John and John have done side projects and still people call out for "Particle Man" because they saw the Animaniacs one time. True, both bands have slower stuff, even really meaningful philosophical stuff, but they will always have more requests for knock knock jokes. From Chad: >Honestly, I'd guess because Naughty By Nature has received >enough national exposure that they can play to crowds of >500 people. Maybe they've earned those crowds by playing >Boulder before and putting on a good show. Who knows? Geez, people are testy because their favorite band isn't popular. It's like Mac or Amiga people who claim that marketing is the sole cause of their computer platform. If only MTV played their videos more, Moxy would fill stadiums. Maybe you should be happy you can still see them in small venues. I would have loved to see Barenaked Ladies before their monster hit "Million Dollars" came out. >But not being able to get over King of Spain isn't the >bands problem. It's a problem with the fans. And worse, >the band gets punished for it. The band has tried really hard >to bring more musically to the table than congas and >acapella music and to me they have done a great job. But >a lot of predisposed media that say Bargainville only >know Moxy Fruvous from 7 years ago. Good points all. Sorry to not have comment, but I liked this paragraph and wanted to repeat it. >Eh? Cheap laugh? No one is going for a cheap laugh I'd >think. Those men up there on stage are entertaining (snip... sorry) "Picto Bandito" is as cheap a laugh as the new Austin Powers film. Sure, it was funny, but I am no longer ten years old. I agree with Chad that the new album seems to be pretty good. I just hope Moxy can put away the King of Spain hats in four years. They're getting stale. Thanks to all the replies, and "no thanks" to the rude anonymous email I received. To that guy, repeat after me: "It's just a band". Moxy is like christianity... sometimes I really am afraid of the followers. Patrick Kellogg kellogg(at)sni(de).com(e off it) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 14:47:37 -0500 From: "Zainab" Subject: OT-New William Shatner movie I know this is terribly off-topic, but I just want to let you all know about a great film I just saw. Here is its URL: http://www.freeent.com/index.shtml It is about some Star Trek fans who also happen to be film makers. They hang out and drink a lot. William Shatner plays himself in it--he's a bumbling dork. It is a really, really funny movie, which I recommend to Star Trek fans, and film fans in general. It's an independent film, and probably won't be advertised on TV, so you'll have to look out for it. I've been e-mailing with the writer/ producer, and he's a really nice guy. Thanks for your attention. Zainab p.s. There's a scene where they main characters tell Bill Shatner that he's the best American actor ever. He says, "I'm Canadian." Ha ha! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 16:36:13 -0400 From: truztno1 Subject: scratch question #5 whoa, i must've been blind, or it must've been the 800+ messages that smacked me in the face, but i just read the post by gingee that the tix r going on sale 6/18, so don't answer question #5 in my first post... sorry, sorry.... but i'd still *love* you (well not quite, that would probably be a VERY scary thing.... i was just figuratively speaking) if you'd attempt to answer the other questions.... bucketloads of thanx in advance! ~truztno1 _______________________________________________________________________ Microsoft: "Where do you want to be dragged today?" Do you really want to go there? Punkass.- Frohike Byers:...He’s being put into power by the most heinous and evil force of the 20th century. Mulder: Barney? ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 1999 21:25:29 GMT From: Gruneberg Veronica J <6vjg@qlink.queensu.ca> Subject: Re: OT: EFO or Arrogant Worms Well, see, the Worms make me laugh and cry too. As in, laugh so hard that I'm crying. But then, a lot of the jokes are very Canadian, so they might be funnier to me. I dunno... just a theory! :) :) Veronica - -- *************************************************************************** "Never look at the trombones, | Veronica Gruneberg it only encourages them." | Dept. of Biology - Richard Strauss | Queen's University | Kingston, Ontario | ICQ#: 38114574 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 17:47:38 -0400 From: "KatieWow" Subject: Re: Ocean City Concert and Thornhill questions >1. Anyone know how long it takes to drive from central jersey down to >Ocean City? where in central jersey? ocean city is about 1.5-2 hours down the parkway from freehold, new jersey if that helps. >2. random guess as to how long the OC concert's gonna last? (sorry, >this is my first concert, I'm soooooo psyched up about it!!!!!) the usual früvous set runs about 1.5 hours. however, trout fishing in america plays too. i don't know if it's a split bill or if trout fishing is the opener. >3. anyone who's been down to the music pier, is it like stadium seating, >or just rows of chairs set up, one behind another, meaning it's damn >important to get good tickets early? >4. is it general seating, meaning you have to get down there as early a >u can, or the tickets tell u exactly where u sit? seating is general. you won't get a seat number. the seating in the music pier (i was there today, actually) resembles bleachers. >5. i know "gingee" mentioned in a 6/3 posting that tickets would go on >sale in a week.... my calendar tells me that it's already been a week, >and FDC still says that they're not on sale yet...what's up w/ that? another post said that the venue was having problems with the printer. tickets will be on sale on 6/18. i personally stopped by the box office today and left my name and number so they could hold some tickets aside for me. hey, i was right there :). >6. is there any way to get tickets other than by calling the number? >(off the web, through ticketmaster, etc.) go to the box office. i don't think music pier shows are handled through an agency. >7. Does anyone know a store chain in the U.S (like sam goody, borders, >etc.) that will most likely have Thornhill? (yeah, i know i could >probably buy it at the concert if i wait 6 days, but still....) i'd say they all will. according to label-folk there's going to be a rather huge US push on this album, and ten to one you'll find it anywhere you look. you can also call früvous headquarters and badger them about allowing you to preorder or some such thing (i mentioned it to bottom line kevin on IRC, and he said he'd look into it) hope this helps! ~~kate - -- Kate Leahy kleahy@loyola.edu katiewow@frumail.org ***************************************************************** "Quite frankly, I wish the website would just go down . . . we're starting to make a little bit of money. It's a disaster." "We're about the music." - --The guys, West Coast Live **************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 18:07:16 -0400 From: "KatieWow" Subject: Re: boulder show review /me scratches head. so do you like this band or not? the guys joke about the name not because they think it's dumb, but because they perpetuate a running joke about how little popular attention they get (re: the banter about how the cheer "früvous, früvous" makes them that much less accessible to general populace). i doubt that they think it's dumb - they just like to joke around. the fact that people request the novelty songs has little to nothing to do with the band--it has to do with "one-songers," people who come for one song, yell for it the entire show, and either leave after it's played or heckle the band if it isn't. you'll find that these people are nothing more than a vocal minority. do they get sick of it? hell yes. at one point in *1994* i believe it was murray who mentioned to a reporter that the band was going to have a ritual burning of the "green eggs and ham" costumes because they were so damn tired of doing the song and have made cracks about how bored they are while performing "king of spain." barenaked ladies have played "if i had a million dollars" at *every* show they've played since the release of 'gordon,' and are occassionally visibly bored when they do it. but, in my opnion (correct me if i'm wrong, Lurker Boy :), playing those songs is something akin to signing autographs. you're hand might start to hurt and your face might get a little stiff from smiling, and you can't think up anything new to say to dumbstruck fans, but you do it every night because it's important to the people who make it possible for you to make music. obviously früvous and barenaked ladies and they might be giants have written far deeper and better songs, but they know that those specific songs mean a great deal to the people who come to see them, and so they play them. the best thing i have ever read on this very subject came from the inimitable rodney elin. in a post dated february 19, 1999, rodney wrote: "I responded that KOS was Fruvous' 'Banana Boat Song,' that being one of the oldest and most endearing relationships between a performer and a song that I know of. (Harry Belafonte got his first hit with that song over 40 years ago, and he still can't make a public appearance without singing it.) Many, many groups have an unfortunate association with a particular song and seem required or destined to play it at every appearance. It is like musical typecasting. You can't think of Led Zeppelin with out thinking of 'Stairway to Heaven,' or John Denver without thinking of 'Take Me Home, Country Roads.' Once, at a Harry Belafonte concert, Harry started talking about some of the advice his mother gave him, and one of the things that his mother told him was to never, never perform a song that he didn't like. Because with his luck, that'll be the song that becomes the biggest hit, and he will have to be performing it for the rest of his life. (It is much more entertaining when Harry tell is, mimicing his mother's Jamacian accent.) Then, to everyone's amusement, he immediately went into a traditional rendition of 'The Banana Boat Song.' The message was as clear as it was amusing: It didn't matter one bit whether he liked the song or not, he had to perform it. Forever" there ya go :). ~~kate - -- Kate Leahy kleahy@loyola.edu katiewow@frumail.org ***************************************************************** "Quite frankly, I wish the website would just go down . . . we're starting to make a little bit of money. It's a disaster." "We're about the music." - --The guys, West Coast Live **************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 1999 23:53:42 GMT From: remcoat@aol.com (REMcoat) Subject: Re: OT-New William Shatner movie i have had a terribly rampant crush on that man for 15 years. this is killing me. heheheheh Oi. Corey H. Orange (formerly Mandy80sFolkie) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "...and who are you?" "We're the Monster Sqaud." {http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Square/6393} ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 19:28:48 -0400 From: truztno1 Subject: Re: Ocean City Concert and Thornhill questions Yeah, that helps a lot!!!! Thanx. : ) ~truztno1 ____________________________________________________________________________ Microsoft: "Where do you want to be dragged today?" Do you really want to go there? Punkass.- Frohike Byers:...He’s being put into power by the most heinous and evil force of the 20th century. Mulder: Barney? ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 1999 23:48:39 GMT From: luckydabed@aol.comSPIFFY (LuCkYDaBeD) Subject: Re: boulder show review >From Chad: > >>Honestly, I'd guess because Naughty By Nature has received >>enough national exposure that they can play to crowds of >>500 people. Maybe they've earned those crowds by playing >>Boulder before and putting on a good show. Who knows? > Patrick wrote: >Geez, people are testy because their favorite band isn't popular. Now, I don't think we are "testy" because our favorite band isn't popular. Sure, it would be nice if more people knew about them, but we're not weighed down by it. Chad was just pointing out that Naughty by Nature has more of a following and more of a name, and that's why there were more people for that show. He wasn't somhow getting mad that they had more people for their show than Fruvous. One more thing, Patrick. Why did you feel the need to post such controversial remarks. You should have known they would have been strongly opposed considering this newsgroup is for fans of the band. Sure, there are such things as an opinion, but restraint is sometimes better. I would say you posted those comments to make people unhappy, but that would be a bit harsh, and mostly untrue. So, Patrick, get off your soapbox. maria ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jun 1999 00:10:51 GMT From: luckydabed@aol.comSPIFFY (LuCkYDaBeD) Subject: Re: Hockey, Clarendon and bdays :) jen excitedly stated: >as for me, this cheesemonkey is 19 as of 7:20 this >morning!!!! Happy B-day Jen! And may the Fruvous be with you! ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jun 1999 00:11:52 GMT From: stereopuff@aol.com (Mike Wood) Subject: Tory at C'est What this Sunday for anyone interested... Tory Cassis will be performing a tribute to the one, the only, the effervescent Tom Waits this Sunday the 13th at C'est What (on the southeast corner of Church & Front... the prettiest, coziest venue in all of Toronto, I might add). There's a $5 cover; I don't know the start-time though. Probably 10-ish. See ya'll there! ~Mike Wood [the Blue Raja] - ----------- "Would you care for a banana?" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 00:24:36 GMT From: tmbgirl@juno.com Subject: Re: boulder show review wooey sasparillah... here i go, one more time... to those of you that aren't patrick you may find this entermusing, maybe not :D >:2. Both are far too chummy with geeky fans in the crowd patrick, just because you don't have any friends and you were all by yourself (as i'm sure you were everyday of school), doesn't mean that every person in that audience is a nerd. Now, don't get me wrong, after my little "i'm pissed at this NG" bit (yeah member that?) i did remind myself that at least 90% of these people are not the type of people i would typically want to "chill" with but ya know what? i think the band, and to a greater extent i (since well... the fans don't worship me so it's a greater barrier for me to do than perhaps them?) have been able to realize that every person is pretty cool in their very own way. While i have yet to realize what your fine quality may be [1]... i'm sure your friends (your mom?) think you're great. Don't be so closeminded, if you allow yourself to see what's really around you in this world, you may be able to enjoy it a little bit greater. >:7. -> Small crowds <- > >i thought the turnout was pretty good for a thursday night at a small >club >in a state where the band gets ZERO airplay... far more than the 200 >people >you estimated in an earlier post. yep, my connections at the fox told me that there were in the vicinity of 375-475 people in the audience. (based on actual ticket sales and the number of tickets they handed out prior to the show in boulder). As far as the rest of your post on "small crowds." Since there really isn't a single radio station in the colorado area that would even imagine playing fruvous on their station, it's difficult to spread the word about them that way. I personally have made at least 75 mix-frutapes for my friends (yeah, some people actually have lots of them) and the show just happened to fall the week after most schools in colorado got out so many of my friends had already left town or i would have had more than the 16 people i went with. I'm sure you weren't helping much in that regards. then you say something about the band getting "far too chummy with their fans" erg, do you know how many of those naughty by nature fans came up to me after i got the frulads autographs and were like "who is that?" (see people aren't afraid to approach me cause, uh, perhaps i look exactly like one of those nbn fans that you claim are "an oh so popular band") They were shocked when i told them that he was one of the members of the band that played before nbn. "you mean they come out and talk to their fans?" naughty by nature had so many more people there as well because uh, boulder is a "college town" yes my friend. NBN appeals to college age people. [1] unless of course it's that you were a fan of moxy fruvous until you were so scared that people might mistake you as a nerd that you had to stop liking them. in which case, i think you lost your "groovy-ness factor" take it easy, JOrdaN http://www2.netcom.com/~arnot/joda/bootlegs.html ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 18:07:20 -0700 From: cookie Subject: Re: boulder show review Kellogg Patrick Layne wrote: > > From Bridget: > >the place was rocking, and had there BEEN > >only 200 people there, it would have been FAR more sparse than it was. call > >me crazy, but the place looked pretty full to me! > > I counted 176 as the show started. Maybe a few more walked in later, but I doubt it. You COUNTED?! ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 1999 19:16:18 -0700 From: kelloggp@nagita.cs.colorado.edu (Kellogg Patrick Layne) Subject: Re: TACT--->A WORKING DEFINITION (was Re: boulder show review) >(I was comparing Moxy to They Might Be Giants, Uncle Bonsai, and The Bobs) > 1. They both have dumb band names that were probably funny at one time > 2. Both are far too chummy with geeky fans in the crowd > 3. Look at their most-requested songs: > Uncle Bonsai "Boys Want Sex In the Morning" > Moxy Fruvous "King of Spain" > Both novelty-type Dr. Demento songs > 4. Nice triple harmonies > 5. Acoustic rock > 6. The "serious" side... exemplified by really obscure lyrics > 7. -> Small crowds <- >OK......Look, I'm not asking you to shut your mouth and not speak your mind, >but you've just really hurt my feelings. Please try to watch what you have to >say in here. Remember that there are so many others on this news group that >may or may not agree with you, and while sometimes being abrasive and honest >is a good thing, in my opinion, it sucks that you forgot exactly when, and in >your carelessness, ruined my night. > Lesson: to put a cliche in motion: >MEAN PEOPLE SUCK----> DON'T BE MEAN. >Thanks a lot and please just consider in your future posts, that not only a >lot of fans, but also the band members themselves, read these messages, so if >you're going to be mean, at least be polite. That's all we ask. First, I'm sorry I bummed you out. I *should* have posted a warning in the header or something. I just didn't like the show. I'm not really sure why you're upset with 1-7 above. I don't think any of them are about you. Ok, ok, "geeky fans" was a little low. However, the rest of the list seems ok to me. On the other hand, if you're upset about it, you're upset. I'm sorry. You weren't the woman who brought the hamster wheel, were you? Patrick Kellogg kellogg(at)sni.net ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 1999 19:05:35 -0700 From: kelloggp@nagita.cs.colorado.edu (Kellogg Patrick Layne) Subject: Re: boulder show review (Jordan) Wow, I make comments on a show (and your favorite band) and the argument turns PERSONAL? You are truly a jerk. >patrick, just because you don't have any friends and you were all by >yourself (as i'm sure you were everyday of school), doesn't mean that >every person in that audience is a nerd. Now, don't get me wrong, after >my little "i'm pissed at this NG" bit (yeah member that?) i did remind >myself that at least 90% of these people are not the type of people i >would typically want to "chill" with but ya know what? i think the band, >and to a greater extent i (since well... the fans don't worship me so >it's a greater barrier for me to do than perhaps them?) have been able >to realize that every person is pretty cool in their very own way. While >i have yet to realize what your fine quality may be [1]... i'm sure your >friends (your mom?) think you're great. Don't be so closeminded, if you >allow yourself to see what's really around you in this world, you may be >able to enjoy it a little bit greater. No, I have no idea why you are "pissed at this NG". Judging from your comments, I'd say it's because you flame like an asshole. (KatieWow) Good comments KatieWow. I agree with you about the name not being necessarily "dumb" but kinda "less accessible". I didn't know the history of "Green Eggs and Ham". The Rodney Elin quote was great. >so do you like this band or not? I do. I guess as a fan, you don't have a right to force a band to change. However, I would love Van Halen to take David Lee Roth back as a singer, I'd love Oingo Boingo to regroup, and so on. Meanwhile, I'd like Moxy to ditch some of the older numbers in concert or re-interpret them (like the U2 version of "King of Spain"). Joe Jackson does a great job in concert of giving fans a good show, though not what they expect. I was not surprised buy 80% of the show Thursday night, though I had never seen MF live before. (luckydabed) >One more thing, Patrick. Why did you feel the need to post such >controversial remarks. You should have known they would have been strongly >opposed considering this newsgroup is for fans of the band. Sure, there are >such things as an opinion, but restraint is sometimes better. I would say you >posted those comments to make people unhappy, but that would be a bit harsh, >and mostly untrue. So, Patrick, get off your soapbox. On alt.music.underworld, I just read a post "This band sux". Now, I didn't do that, did I? I really tried to say something, even if you don't agree with it. Yeah, I'm negative (I tried to joke about being "cranky" in the first post... due to summer math classes and programming deadlines). I gave the show a lukewarm review. Maybe I'll like the next one more. However, my post got some cool comments (and an idiot), and I learned some stuff about the band and the new album. So it was worth it to me. If you aren't getting anything out of this post, don't read it. Killfile me. It's not like I'm going to spam the place. Soapbox off. Sorry it turned into a tirade. Patrick Kellogg kellogg(at)sni.net ------------------------------ End of alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V3 #485 ********************************************