From: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org (alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest) To: ammf-digest@smoe.org Subject: alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V3 #286 Reply-To: ammf@fruvous.com Sender: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest Tuesday, March 23 1999 Volume 03 : Number 286 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Ponderings...(Long) [Frumanchu ] Re: am i off [Josh Drury ] Re: autonomous street signs [Gruneberg Veronica J <6vjg@qlink.queensu.ca>] Re: rumors [Chad Maloney ] Re: eek! happy belated holidays to everyone . . . ["^kat^" ] Re: *itinerary* ["^kat^" ] Re: Ponderings... [Josh Drury ] Re: Time Warp ["KatieWow" ] Time Warp [nafio@my-dejanews.com] Re: Name spellings [SkyStar117@aol.com] Re: Moxy Fruvous [Revell Sara E <4ser4@qlink.queensu.ca>] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=FCvous?= Midis [Feeny aka Chris Campbell ] Re: Upcoming shows? [Gruneberg Veronica J <6vjg@qlink.queensu.ca>] Re: Upcoming shows? [Revell Sara E <4ser4@qlink.queensu.ca>] Re: autonomous street signs [jkpolk@ntplx.net (Andrea Krause)] Re: am i off [Gruneberg Veronica J <6vjg@qlink.queensu.ca>] Re: another date! [Chad Maloney ] Re: Moxy Fruvous [Gruneberg Veronica J <6vjg@qlink.queensu.ca>] Re: rumors [nixieh@aol.com (NixieH)] Styleens show ["Hell Hotel" ] Re: Name spellings [juggleguy@aol.com (JuggleGuy)] Re: *itinerary* ["Leah C. Bridgers" ] Re: *itinerary* [tmbgirl@juno.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:40:49 GMT From: Frumanchu Subject: Re: Ponderings...(Long) > 1) Congressman Jack Quinn (Buffalo) is proposing a new Federal Holiday, Pearl > Harbor Day on Dec 7. The general argument is that all war veterans are > already acknowledged in Nov and those died or missing in May. His argument is > that Pearl Harbor instigated the US involvement in WWII and paved the way for > Democracy and the US becoming a world superpower. While I agree with his > argument, I don't agree with instituting _another_ US national holiday. > Opinions? [Stepping up to the soapbox] I don't like the logic of the argument for it. The United States tried to be an isolationist nation time and again, and always ended up being pulled, kicking and screaming, into the fighting (at least for the most part). We tried to stay out of WWII as much as possible without comletely abandoning our allies. The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor gave us really very little choice but to enter the war. We only declared war against the Japanese Empire at that time. It wasn't until after that that Germany and Italy declared war on the United States. Now they want to glorify this event with a holiday, as though we were just sitting and waiting for an excuse to enter the war so we could force our political system on the nations of the world and still be on the right side. Pearl Harbor at best INDIRECTLY led to the United States' present state. If Pearl Harbor Day, then why not Hiroshima Day or Ivy Mike Day? These two have just as much to do with US influence in the world as Pearl Harbor. If a person is severely, sexually abused as a child, resolves one day to become a lawyer, and ends up prosecuting more sex offenders and abusers that anyone in the world, do you think that person celebrates the fact that they were abused because it paved the way for their career? Of course not! > 2) Batavia, NY resident and 6 year hostage Terry Anderson is suing (or > preparing to sue) Iran for funding the Lebanese terrorists responsible for his > abduction. Clinton is dissuading any litigation from former hostage victims > because it conflicts with current US/Middle East foreign relations policies. > Again, opinions? I too read about this on the CNN website. I think the US Government's stance on this matter is deplorable. Other cases have been taken up by other parties which have tried to sue foreign nations for similar things. There was a case cited in the CNN article about 3 families who sued for and WON a $187 million against Cuba for shooting down private planes and killing 3 Cuban-Americans. The US Government gave each of them $300,000 of "seized Cuban assetts" but refuses to give them any more. This is because, while it is legal for citizens to sue the governments of foreign nations for terrorist acts (Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996) and the Treasury and State Departments are required to help in settling, the Executive Branch can circumvent this in the interest of "National Security." This is truly a crime. The US Government seems to have no remorse in blocking any attempt for these people to receive compensation for their hardships. I'll step down from my soapbox now:) Phil - -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:05:14 -0600 From: Josh Drury Subject: Re: am i off Mindy J Munson wrote: > > is my connection down or is this just a slow week? I think it was just on a cyclical high from Frucon, and it's just now returning to near normal. Josh Drury Winnipeg ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 1999 22:30:07 GMT From: Gruneberg Veronica J <6vjg@qlink.queensu.ca> Subject: Re: autonomous street signs Nice to meet you to, Marco!! :) Glad you could join us. (Sorry, I know this is a little late, but I'm slow on the uptake) :) Veronica (who did not grow up in Conneticut. I guess Toronto will have to do... But I got really lost in Conneticut once! I could have done with a few more road signs along the way...) - -- *************************************************************************** "Never look at the trombones, | Veronica Gruneberg it only encourages them." | Dept. of Biology - Richard Strauss | Queen's University | Kingston, Ontario ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:41:04 -0500 From: Chad Maloney Subject: Re: rumors JuggleGuy wrote: > > I caught ear of something that fruvous might be singing in wilmington, > delaware...but after this itenary thingy i was shot down. any ideas? april 30 > was what i heard. I've heard from two separate people that Fruvous is playing at Captain Trip's in Utica on the 30th. Of course neither of those is Chris O'Malley or Jude, so I guess that would qualify as a rumour. I'm sure a call to the venue would get some info, but I'm not that needy on information as of yet. But the new itinerary has them at Styleen's on the 29th and Utica is just a small jaunt down the road, so that info makes sense to me. - Chad (spreading rumours as best he can) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:33:21 -0500 From: "^kat^" Subject: Re: eek! happy belated holidays to everyone . . . Brent McNamee wrote : >Thanks Katie! Wow!! I love them! I'm still playing the Bach MIDI >file that was the background music for that first card. Beautiful >music! indeed... i left the persian muzak (from the second card) on in the background for longer than was humanly necessary just 'cause it was so darn cool. thanks so much for brightening my day! *grin* ^kat^ "but these cuts i have need love to help them heal..." http://fly.to/the.midway.after.dark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:56:10 -0500 From: Judith Coombe for Moxy Fruvous Subject: another date! Hello Frufans! A new date has been added for April 30th in Utica for the Rainforest Preserve. We'll keep you updated, as we add dates! Jude ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Judith Coombe, Management Assistant Moxy Fruvous 416-368-5599 moxy@passport.ca www.fruvous.com TOUR DATES: Thurs April 29 Syracuse, NY Styleens Fri April 30 Utica, NY Rainforest Preserve Sat May 22 New Holland, PA Spring Gulch Sat May 29 Sonora, CA Strawberry Festival Sat June 5 San Francisco, CA Fleadh Festival Sat June 12 Chicago, IL Fleadh Festival Tues June 15 Ann Arbor, MI The Ark Wed June 16 Ann Arbor, MI The Ark Sat June 19 Boston, MA Fleadh Festival Sun June 20 Croton-on-Hudson, NY Clearwater Great River Revival Festival Sat June 26 New York, NY Fleadh Festival Sat July 3 Fort Erie, ON Friendship Festival ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:38:11 -0500 From: "^kat^" Subject: Re: *itinerary* Caitlin wrote : >OK, so there's no *need* for people to come all the way to California to >see frushows... but to see me?!? *heehee* hey, i've always wanted to see san fransisco, and a fruvous show would truly be the ideal excuse to trip out to the west coast... but seeing as how sat. june 5th is the day of my graduation, i probably should stick around town. ;p oh, well... i'm passing up involvement in my church's musical to attend falconridge, anyway. some sacrifices simply must be made. :) ^kat^ "how can i, when you build the great wall around you...?" http://fly.to/the.midway.after.dark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:08:54 -0600 From: Josh Drury Subject: Re: Ponderings... Angie Armstrong wrote: > > See, this is what I get for watching the news last night (in the throes of a > yucky cold, of course): > > 1) Congressman Jack Quinn (Buffalo) is proposing a new Federal Holiday, Pearl > Harbor Day on Dec 7. The general argument is that all war veterans are > already acknowledged in Nov and those died or missing in May. His argument is > that Pearl Harbor instigated the US involvement in WWII and paved the way for > Democracy and the US becoming a world superpower. While I agree with his > argument, I don't agree with instituting _another_ US national holiday. > Opinions? Yes, two holidays for veterans is enough, and if you're going to institue another one on the subject, how about "World Peace Day" or something? Besides, the U.S. doesn't need another holiday between their (late) Thanksgiving and Xmas. Josh Drury Winnipeg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:43:09 -0500 From: "KatieWow" Subject: Re: Time Warp well :)?!?!?! >1. What is the picture on the puzzle that is broken in the video for >"Fell in Love".? > >2. What are the characters doing in the video for "Fly"? *sigh* the only früvideo i've seen is "king of spain" >3. What motion picture movie was David Matheson in? eddie and the cruisers part II >4. What University did Mike, Murray and Jean go to? Double if you >know what they majored in? umm . . . mike studied french and theater, murray english, ji history and political science. jian went to york u. (also the alma mater of BNL's steven page i just found out :), but i'm not sure about the other two. i was under the impression that they had gone to different schools; i was once told where mike went and it wasn't york. hmm. >5. Where was Jean born? england--right? that's what it says in the toronto star's september 13, 1998 interview. i'm still curious about that university stuff, though . . . :) ~~kate - -- kate leahy kleahy@loyola.edu everybody loves a happy ending but we don't even try we go straight past pretending to the part where everyone loves to cry - --elvis costello ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:47:59 GMT From: nafio@my-dejanews.com Subject: Time Warp Ok this week's (or whatever) Time Warp isn't a review, but a collection of short posts from January '96 -- here's what was happening on a.m.m-f back then! (email addresses and such have been eliminated) Enjoy! AJ & Fiona Subject: Hey, what's up? From: Rob Courtney Date: 1996/01/01 Newsgroups: alt.music.moxy-fruvous,alt.fan.moxy.fruvous Well, I have to say that I am a little bit disappointed with the lack of messages in this group. But that's OK! I vote that we hard-core FrFans bring this newsgroup up to speed. I just saw Moxy in concert for the first time last night (Dec. 31, Buffalo). It ROCKED. I had a great time, and afterwards got a chance to (briefly) talk with the band. They were really great. Looks like I'm going to have to attempt to attend the date in Rochester if I can! Something DOES seem to be wrong with the Frvous home page. Has anyone heard from Josh Cragun (the guy who runs it)? I don't know him, but in the past I have seen his posts in this group. The page is just loading really slow or not at all, and I've never had problems with it before. Oh well... Keep posting here! We need to build this group up! Rob Courtney I don't have a sig file yet, but I need one. - ----- Subject: Re: Tape Tree From: (Karen Parker) Date: 1996/01/04 John Greene writes: > > Jamie.... have you been in touch with Jason? Isn't this fun?????? 8-P > I haven't heard much else from Jamie. hA while ago, he said he was sending me my tape, postage due, which seems weird cause I haven't sent him a tape yet to tape the thing on, and I can't believe he's going to absorb the cost of six 100 minute cassettes for all his child-branches... Argh! Can someone else step in as the parent for mine and Jason's (and whoever else is in it) section, perhaps, and then the rest of us can all get on with the tree?! Karen - ----- Subject: trivia From: (Goldsmith) Date: 1996/01/10 I'm sure we can keep asking questions back and forth forever and ever so let's do it. I'll include my two cents worth. Here we go 1. What is the picture on the puzzle that is broken in the video for "Fell in Love".? 2. What are the characters doing in the video for "Fly"? 3. What motion picture movie was David Matheson in? 4. What University did Mike, Murray and Jean go to? Double if you know what they majored in? 5. Where was Jean born? Please answer here. Cyndee - ----- Subject: Moxy on MusicWorks From: (Hugo Rodrigues) Date: 1996/01/22 Well, by this time, you have all seen the Frufour on CBC with the ol' Degreassi grad moved to Liberty Street Pat Mastrio--? . some of us have seen this for the second time, the fisrt showing was earlier this summer.. The frufour played only a few songs... Down From Above Fly Present Tense Tureen River Valley (closer) I think I missed one in there somehwhere... The boys, who filmed this in Ottawa in June, before releasing Wood, looked kinda committed.. They surely didn't have any of that concert flair that fans are used to seing.. musta been the CBC exec feeding their lines, or at least feeding them what they could say... If anyone wants a copy, email me, I have a fairly good quality Beta tape with a few snowflakes at the begginning of the first song, but otherwise pristeen. Combine that with the other VHS VCR and you have something illegal! I won't tell if you don't... :> On another subject.. my mum and I were watching them on Rita and Friends on jan. 19, when she said that the Frufour resemble the Fabfour.. ie: The Beatles.. That put my mind in gear... not only to they resemble then harmonically, but in their public personalities too.. Looking at them personality-wise.. tell me what you think.. Jean -- Paul McCartney Mike -- George Harrison Dave -- John Lennon Murray -- Ringo I would have to argue myself on that Jean - Paul / Dave - John thing.. it depends on the time of day... but Mike is definately a George and Murray is no doubt a Ringo -- never says much but always says something that knocks you off your feet... (right Rosemary??) Anyways.. I've babbled enough.. for those of you who saw Little Criminals on Sun. Jan. 21, check out the new sig.. for those of who didn't.. you missed a very insightful and good movie. Take Care Throwing a lit match at the now gasoline-soaked mailbox... "I hate junk mail..." -- Brendan Fletcher as Des, CBC's "Little Criminals" - -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 02:56:49 GMT From: SkyStar117@aol.com Subject: Re: Name spellings josh said: << Yet, ironically, Florida is right. It's Trivial Pursuit who is wrong, unless they just misread the question. Reminds me of the Seinfeld episode with the bubble boy, where evidently it was the "Moops" who invaded Spain. >> yup! delaware has THE LOWEST MEAN AVG. ELEVATION of 60 ft....but FLORIDA is home to the lowest highest point.... just in case someone cared:) - -debs ------------------------------ Date: 24 Mar 1999 02:10:34 GMT From: Revell Sara E <4ser4@qlink.queensu.ca> Subject: Re: Moxy Fruvous Marc Frucht wrote: : My friend Sara turned me on to : Moxy Fruvous last Wednesday, I And I was just about to respond to kate's post about there being too many kate's, by saying that I'm the only Sara around here... and now Marc comes along and tells of another Fruhead named Sara. But since she's not actually posting (yet), I think I'm safe for now... :) Sara (who thinks it's really bizarre to see her name in a post when it doesn't refer to her...it confused me for half a minute!!) _______ The secret of life: breathe in, breathe out, repeat. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 00:42:16 GMT From: Feeny aka Chris Campbell Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=FCvous?= Midis Are the any MF midis out there anywhere? Thanks!!!! - -- - - Feeny, aka Christopher, "Chris" Feeny Campbell - -- Feeny@tmbg.org - --- Http://w3.to/tmbg - ----ICQ# 22373843 Aim: Chriscam84 "There's a car without a handle And that car is still at large" -They Might Be Giants (Summer Breeze) "(Dave) Try not to think while your inside Yes keep your wide eyes wide wide open (Jian) Keep your eyes open wide (Mike) Keep them wide" -Moxy Fruvous (Fell In Love) "Here's your problem, the doll was set to EVIL" -Homer Simpson ------------------------------ Date: 24 Mar 1999 00:42:40 GMT From: Gruneberg Veronica J <6vjg@qlink.queensu.ca> Subject: Re: Summerfolk '99 Info Well, I don't know where Aryn is, but I'd like to second her comments - a big fat TTTHHHPPPFFFTTTTT!!!! to you all. It's still below freezing here, and I have no idea what 60 - 70 degrees converts to, but it sounds warm, so TTTTTHHHPPPFFFFTTTT!!!!! :P Snowing yesterday... below freezing the rest of the week... and it's supposed to be 8 degrees in Thunder Bay. What the heck is going on here?! As my housemate would say, something is bass-ackwards. :) Veronica (who is bloody freezing, and on her way to put on her polar flecce while sitting IN HER APARTMENT!!!) - -- *************************************************************************** "Never look at the trombones, | Veronica Gruneberg it only encourages them." | Dept. of Biology - Richard Strauss | Queen's University | Kingston, Ontario ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 1999 22:35:23 GMT From: Gruneberg Veronica J <6vjg@qlink.queensu.ca> Subject: Re: Upcoming shows? SSSSSHHHHHH!!!!!! Don't mention finals! If you don't talk about it, they won't come. That's my philosophy. I'm in third year and it hasn't happened yet, but I figure there's always hope. On a completely unrelated note, I didn't get offered a lab spot, which means that I won't be doing a thesis, which means I won't be staying here this summer. Which means I will be moving back in with my parents, and I will be going back to my deathly boring summer job. :) Veronica (who is trying desperately to keep her chin up as she watches her academic future crumble slowly... oh lord, now I've depressed all of you.. happy thoughts... I don't have a paper due until next week!) - -- *************************************************************************** "Never look at the trombones, | Veronica Gruneberg it only encourages them." | Dept. of Biology - Richard Strauss | Queen's University | Kingston, Ontario ------------------------------ Date: 24 Mar 1999 02:05:06 GMT From: Revell Sara E <4ser4@qlink.queensu.ca> Subject: Re: Upcoming shows? Gruneberg Veronica J <6vjg@qlink.queensu.ca> wrote: : On a completely unrelated note, I didn't get offered a lab spot, which : means that I won't be doing a thesis, which means I won't be staying here On the bright side, everyone I know who is doing a thesis completly hates it, says it is a waste of time, and wishes they had never done it. But I am sorry to hear that you didn't get the job you wanted. : this summer. Which means I will be moving back in with my parents, and I : will be going back to my deathly boring summer job. But think of how much fun it was last year! :) At least you will have email...and the NG to keep you amused. : you.. happy thoughts... I don't have a paper due until next week!) I have one due tomorrow...back to it... On a Fruvous note, I was saddened at the latest tour schedule...I need something to look forward to! When will they be back in Ontario (my single stamp on my Frumiles card is sad and lonely...) Sara _______ The secret of life: breathe in, breathe out, repeat. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 01:33:24 GMT From: jkpolk@ntplx.net (Andrea Krause) Subject: Re: autonomous street signs On Sat, 20 Mar 1999 06:59:10 GMT, Marc Frucht wrote: >A fellow fruvous fan in connecticut? >Neato. >My name is Marco Capelli Frucht and I >grew up in Southeastern, CT. But I >live and work in Wisconsin these days. >Nice to meet you, >marco >http://pagina.de/capelli > I live in CT but 99% of my relatives live in Wisconsin....:) (I'm from Ohio though, I'm the oddball...my sister was even born in Wisconsin) Just my totally useless "hey it kinda relates!" post. :) Andrea - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Moxy Früvous is a trust exercise." - Mike Ford 1/1/99 Pumpkins, Cookies, Tapes: http://www.ntplx.net/~jkpolk - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: 24 Mar 1999 00:27:34 GMT From: Gruneberg Veronica J <6vjg@qlink.queensu.ca> Subject: Re: am i off Oh. Good. I was getting worried, too. What??!! I can't be catching up on posts!! This can't be right!! I must have slipped into a parallel universe. Nope. Same one. Rats. :) Veronica (the one and only!) - -- *************************************************************************** "Never look at the trombones, | Veronica Gruneberg it only encourages them." | Dept. of Biology - Richard Strauss | Queen's University | Kingston, Ontario ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:42:56 -0500 From: Chad Maloney Subject: Re: another date! Judith Coombe for Moxy Fruvous wrote: > A new date has been added for April 30th in Utica for the Rainforest > Preserve. Um... nevermind. I've heard of a show in Utica on April 30th from 3 people and one of them is Jude so it isn't a rumour anymore *grin* Thanks, Jude! - Chad ------------------------------ Date: 24 Mar 1999 00:33:31 GMT From: Gruneberg Veronica J <6vjg@qlink.queensu.ca> Subject: Re: Moxy Fruvous Elves??!! Why didn't someone tell me!! Sheesh... now it's all starting to make sense!!! I was starting to wonder... :) Veronica - -- *************************************************************************** "Never look at the trombones, | Veronica Gruneberg it only encourages them." | Dept. of Biology - Richard Strauss | Queen's University | Kingston, Ontario ------------------------------ Date: 24 Mar 1999 03:19:19 GMT From: nixieh@aol.com (NixieH) Subject: Re: rumors >well, they're in syracuse the night before, and at least Yippee! I just came back to ammf after quite a long absence and what do I see? A Syracuse date that looks like I will be able to go to! As I said before: YIPPEE! ( Thanks Katie for encouraging me to pop in again over here.) Now back to your regularly scheduled posts. Nixie ------------------------------ Date: 24 Mar 1999 03:38:39 GMT From: "Hell Hotel" Subject: Styleens show TOUR DATES: Thurs April 29 Syracuse, NY Styleens ok, is styleens a 21+ bar or an 18+ bar? i'm hoping it'll just be 18+ and then I'll live with an X on my hand for that night....*fingers crossed* thanks - -Eric ------------------------------ Date: 24 Mar 1999 03:58:50 GMT From: juggleguy@aol.com (JuggleGuy) Subject: Re: Name spellings Technically, the young man on the CD Live Noise yelling "IOWA" frantically was right. Delaware has the lowest highest point in relevance to sea level. We asked all the geography teachers in school, I don't understand, but it has something to do with relevance to sea level. Florida has the same case as Iowa, but it's not as extreme? Understand? I sure dont. - -mike- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:11:30 EST From: "Leah C. Bridgers" Subject: Re: *itinerary* When I went there the last time, it was an 18+ bar, but they charge you a little more if you're under 21. Leah On 22 Mar 1999, Hell Hotel wrote: > >TOUR DATES: > >Thurs April 29 Syracuse, NY Styleens > > > ok, is styleens a 21+ bar or an 18+ bar? i'm hoping it'll just be 18+ and > then I'll live with an X on my hand for that night....*fingers crossed* > thanks > > -Eric > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 03:41:43 GMT From: tmbgirl@juno.com Subject: Re: *itinerary* >> >Sat May 29 Sonora, CA Strawberry Festival >> >Sat June 5 San Francisco, CA Fleadh Festival hehee... somehow i've gotta make it back to denver on the 1st for my graduation :) maybe they'll just happen to decide that denver is the place to spend the week... hey denver frucrew... someone call up swallow hill... i bet they'd be willing to book 'em :) oh man that's so creepy... i dreamed last night that they were playing at my graduation party... along with snmnmnm who i've never seen or heard but whatever... that's my dream for ya. take it easy, JOrdaN http://www2.netcom.com/~arnot/joda/bootlegs.html ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ End of alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V3 #286 ********************************************