From: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org (alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest) To: ammf-digest@smoe.org Subject: alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V3 #1007 Reply-To: ammf@fruvous.com Sender: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest Thursday, December 9 1999 Volume 03 : Number 1007 Today's Subjects: ----------------- OT: Share your ideas for #moxyfruvous ["Adam Hartfield" ] Re: Toronto Sun interview, Dec. 7th ["Anna!" ] Re: Toronto Setlist ["Gordon Elgart" ] Re: Toronto Sun interview, Dec. 7th ["Valerie Jones" ] Musices.Com -- Now in english 464 [zsotnu@musices.com] PENIS..ENLARGEMENT...3-5.INCHES!!!...FREE..INFO!! 1950 [s2332g@df343m.ne] Have A HUGE PENIS!! FREE INFO! 9632 [ks12332g@df3143m.net] ENLARGE YOUR PENIS...FREE INFO....NATURAL. 4128 [s343dk@dlfl8e.net] Re: you guys Rock! (and a request for info) [cookie ] Re: Somerville review from MIT's _The Tech_ [ACW ] Re: PENIS..ENLARGEMENT...3-5.INCHES!!!...FREE..INFO!! 1950 ["Gordon Elga] Re: Somerville review from MIT's _The Tech_ [Ellen ] Re: Share your ideas for #moxyfruvous [hugrod@home.com (Hugo Rodrigues)] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 00:40:17 -0500 From: "Adam Hartfield" Subject: OT: Share your ideas for #moxyfruvous Hi all, In this upcoming week, ending on Wednesday, December 15, #moxyfruvous, the Undernet IRC channel, is being reorganized. People who would like to have input on the new structure of the channel are invited to come into the channel to share their ideas. If you're completely new to the channel, welcome, and please listen for a while first so that you can get a feel of what's already been suggested. Thanks, and see you there. - --Adam adamh@javanet.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 03:25:31 +0100 From: Mike Wood Subject: Toronto Setlist RAIN RIVER HALF HORSE FLY B+B LAZY MOON MORPHEE MINNIE PORK [Mur+Dave] TODAY'S THE DAY [Ji+Mike] MARION SPLATTER HOLD MPG AUTHORS PSYCHO - ---- MICH - ---- KING GREEN DRINK [off-mic] sleep now... comments later... ~MikeWood - --------- come on up to the house ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 07:27:09 GMT From: "Anna!" Subject: Re: Toronto Sun interview, Dec. 7th ACW wrote: > > >Ahem. Outside the taping moratorium, I've been to at least four > > >shows this year that weren't taped: > > > Jian didn't say that there hadn't been an untaped show in three > > years. He > > said that there's a sense that that's the case - and that's > > certainly the sense that I get. > > I can read, Kate; I don't share that sense. The difference is that you > primarily go to shows in the east, where virtually every show is taped. > What I said is that *my* sense is that taping is not a blanket that > covers the Fruvous scene, although that does happen to be true in one > geographical area. I made the effort to branch out geographically this > year, so my viewpoint is going to be different than yours. Well, for those of us who have school, jobs, lives, etc. and can't afford the "make the effort" to branch out geographically - I think that we all have the same idea on what has been going on with the taping situation. The amount of people taping on the west coast, is probably proportionate to the number of shows that fruvous plays there. i mean, they do spend what seems to be the majority of the time touring on the eastern side of North America. It would make much more sense that serious tapers (by that I mean serious fruvous tapers) would be over here. I doubt that many people would get heavily into taping a band they see perhaps once a year. Regardless, when one looks at the amount of shows they have played in the last year, the fact that you can only remember four that weren't taped?! That really might as well be every show. In comparison, Fruvous is most certainly not Phish. Their fan base is exponentially smaller - I doubt that the members of Phish know their tapers by first name, or *see* the taping equipment in the crowd while they perform. And despite whether the band gives permission to tape or not, with a fan dynamic such as this - they can't help but be aware that not only are they giving a live show, but they're giving one that is going to be recorded forever. Imagine how you would feel ... it would feel like "every show" was being taped to you too, I'll bet. If that's the sense that Jian gets, then that's the sense he gets. There isn't really any way to argue that his perception is wrong, if it's true to him... > > I feel sometimes like there are people who would record > > the band snoring if they sold taper tickets. > > The people who tape Fruvous respected the ban. In my experience, > they're careful about who they trade with and very much aware that > taping is a privelege. If that's really how you feel about tapers and > taping, think about your collection of recordings of live shows. I have to agree with Kate on this one. There was a joke among a few of us a couple weeks ago that the band could probably make a lot of money by selling $20 tickets to watch Murray fry an egg. $30 if he was wearing pajamas. Would I buy a ticket? Sadly, I probably would. Does that make the situation any less ridiculous? No. I think Kate was simply making a point that we probably all know - there is a hell of a lot of taping going on. She wasn't making any judgement on tapers or people who trade. (At least, that's what *I* thought...) > We all benefit from a few people being willing to tape, and a few > others being willing to trade; we benefit from the band's support of > non-commercial taping. I think we owe all those people our thanks, not > snarky remarks. If we're going to be arguing technicalities (which is how this got started anyway) - we don't *all* benefit ... there are a lot of people who don't trade at all and have no interest in trading at all. Does the band benefit? In some ways, I'm sure they do. But in other ways, they certainly seem to have a lot of reservations and concerns lately. I would rather see one amazing show that was never taped, then own copies of five shows that I wasn't even present at. Meanwhile, I didn't notice any "snarky remarks" until your post. - -anna- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 03:15:39 -0500 From: "Gordon Elgart" Subject: Re: Toronto Setlist Ack..... Nice list.... Marion Fruvous...I'm jealous. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 08:08:07 GMT From: "Valerie Jones" Subject: Re: Toronto Sun interview, Dec. 7th > --Amanda, a master of snarky remarks naw, who would have guessed? and that *really* is something to be proud of ... really, it is. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Dec 1999 08:54:45 GMT From: zsotnu@musices.com Subject: Musices.Com -- Now in english 464 Musices.Com now in english A complete professional music guide. Include your URL for free in this guide and let over 400 million spanish speaking people know of your existence. http://www.musices.com/add-url.e.asp http://www.musices.com/default.e.asp ppfeufjzpiqlottffdxlrlxpfhlihnrxrzeqcfurqveyzjdpmcvhnylclksnilqtggxcrmmwkmljcgxzwtudpwujobrc ------------------------------ Date: 9 Dec 1999 09:56:04 GMT From: s2332g@df343m.net Subject: PENIS..ENLARGEMENT...3-5.INCHES!!!...FREE..INFO!! 1950 VISIT http://members.xoom.com/enlargeit/ FREE INFO!!! Enlarge your penis naturally with these techniques. Gain 3-5 Inches in just weeks. Doctor proven and tested methods shoe you how. Foolproof, safe, natural, and affective. VISIT http://members.xoom.com/enlargeit/ bwwwpgbtbxhlymzobfgvreycbftkginwslqebfiovdbixxodvkuvnyjoicz ------------------------------ Date: 9 Dec 1999 10:15:12 GMT From: ks12332g@df3143m.net Subject: Have A HUGE PENIS!! FREE INFO! 9632 VISIT http://members.xoom.com/enlargeit/ FREE INFO!!! Enlarge your penis naturally with these techniques. Gain 3-5 Inches in just weeks. Doctor proven and tested methods shoe you how. Foolproof, safe, natural, and affective. VISIT http://members.xoom.com/enlargeit/ shsyxtsfryqdjyxnooueyoigbkubeuqrwuglqdcxjmjyuqpisepxluqeszzqyqnzgbtbdjygmxsemznowbvmtsfofmtsnjwdk ------------------------------ Date: 09 Dec 1999 07:00:08 EST From: s343dk@dlfl8e.net Subject: ENLARGE YOUR PENIS...FREE INFO....NATURAL. 4128 VISIT http://members.xoom.com/enlargeit/ FREE INFO!!! Enlarge your penis naturally with these techniques. Gain 3-5 Inches in just weeks. Doctor proven and tested methods show you how. Foolproof, safe, natural, and affective. VISIT http://members.xoom.com/enlargeit/ qdgfverwilvowe ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 21:23:03 -0800 From: cookie Subject: Re: you guys Rock! (and a request for info) Chad Maloney wrote: > Again, I find that very pessimistic because there's > no way to truly make gains in life without opening yourself up and > making yourself vulnerable. In order to explore the greatest parts > of life, you have to open yourself up and be incredibly vulnerable. > You risk the chance of being deeply hurt for the chance that you > connect honestly with someone, a connection that may last the > rest of yourself. This is the most profound thing I've read today. This should be on the Register of the 927 (or was it 928?) Eternal Truths: (From "If You Meet the Buddha on the Road, Kill Thank you. Cookie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 21:44:40 -0800 From: cookie Subject: Re: you guys Rock! (and a request for info) You know, I really hate it when you accidentally bump the wrong key on the keyboard, and your message gets sent prematurely. Here's one more attempt: cookie wrote: > > Chad Maloney wrote: > Again, I find that very pessimistic because there's > no way to truly make gains in life without opening yourself up and > making yourself vulnerable. In order to explore the greatest parts > of life, you have to open yourself up and be incredibly vulnerable. > You risk the chance of being deeply hurt for the chance that you > connect honestly with someone, a connection that may last the > rest of yourself. This is the most profound thing I've read today. Thank you. This should be on the Register of the 927 (or was it 928?) Eternal Truths*: Here's the partial list: 1. This is it! 2. There are no hidden meanings. 3. You can't get there from here, and besides, there's no place else to go. 4. We are all already dying, and we will be dead for a long time. 5. Nothing lasts. 6. There is no way of getting all you want. 7. You can't have anything unless you let go of it. 8. You only get to keep what you give away. 9. There is no particular reason why you lost out on some things. 10. The world is not necessarily just. Being good often does not pay off and there is no compensation for misfortune. 11. You have a responsibility to do your best nonetheless. 12. It is a random universe to which we bring meaning. 13. You don't really control anything. 14. You can't make anyone love you. 15. No one is any stronger or any weaker than anyone else. 16. Everyone is, in his own way, vulnerable. 17. There are no great men. 18. If you have a hero, look again: you have diminished yourself in some way. 19. Everyone lies, cheats, pretends (yes, you too, and most certainly, I, myself.) 20. All evil is potential vitality in need of transformation. 21. All of you is worth something, if you will only own it. 22. Progress is an illusion. 23. Evil can be displaced but never eradicated, as all solutions breed new problems. 24. Yet it is necessary to keep on struggling toward solution. 25. Childhood is a nightmare. 26. But it is so very hard to be an on-your-own, take-care-of-yourself-cause-there-is-no-one-else-to-do-it-for-you grown-up. 27. Each of us is ultimately alone. 28. The most important things, each man must do for himself. 29. Love is not enough, but it sure helps. 30. We have only ourselves, and one another. That may not be much, but that's all there is. 31. How strange, that so often, it all seems worth it. 32. We must live within the ambiguity of partial freedom, partial power, and partial knowledge. 33. All important decisions must be made on the basis of insufficient data. 34. Yet we are responsible for everything we do. 35. No excuses will be accepted. 36. You can run, but you can't hide. 37. It is most important to run out of scapegoats. 38. We must learn the power of living with our helplessness. 39. The only victory lies in surrender to oneself. 40. All of the significant battles are waged within the self. 41. You are free to do whatever you like. You need only face the consequences. 42. What do you know...for sure...anyway? 43. Learn to forgive yourself, again and again and again and again... Cookie *I found this gem in "If You Meet the Buddha on the Road, Kill Him," but it was quoted from "The Laundry List" originally appearing in "Voices 6 no. 2 (Fall 1970):29 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 13:25:18 GMT From: vika@attglobal.net (Vika Zafrin) Subject: Re: Toronto Sun interview, Dec. 7th Spake "Anna!" : [Amanda] >> I can read, Kate; I don't share that sense. Oooh. Ouch. >>The difference is that you >> primarily go to shows in the east, where virtually every show is taped. >> What I said is that *my* sense is that taping is not a blanket that >> covers the Fruvous scene, although that does happen to be true in one >> geographical area. Well, I don't know about that. I know of at least one ardent taper/trader over there in the Seattle area... And as Anna said, that's a lot, proportionally: I can only think of three or four *regular* tapers for the whole of Northeast. And I'm sure there's at least one other person besides norg who tapes in the West. [Anna] >I doubt that >many people would get heavily into taping a band they see perhaps once a >year. Heh. I don't know about that. Especially if you bulk together taping [and/or] trading. :) We've got some pretty rabid ones out there. >And despite whether the band gives permission to tape or not, with a fan >dynamic such as this - they can't help but be aware that not only are >they giving a live show, but they're giving one that is going to be >recorded forever. Agreed. If Fruvous were oblivious to their fans, especially on the 'net.... well, aside from not being the Fruvous we know and love and appreciate anymore, they'd probably be more oblivious to the taping equipment. [Amanda] >> The people who tape Fruvous respected the ban. In my experience, at least a couple of tapers took some coaxing, in order not to succumb to stealthing. That was kind of a jarring realization, for me, that people would *need* coaxing, to show respect. So far as I know, they ended up honoring the request, though. >>In my experience, >> they're careful about who they trade with and very much aware that >> taping is a privelege. Now that I agree with. 99.9% of what I've seen for the past three years confirms this. >I think Kate was simply making a >point that we probably all know - there is a hell of a lot of taping >going on. She wasn't making any judgement on tapers or people who trade. >(At least, that's what *I* thought...) Judgement? I didn't see any, in Kate's post. >Does the >band benefit? In some ways, I'm sure they do. But in other ways, they >certainly seem to have a lot of reservations and concerns lately. I think their reservations and concerns might have more to do with how the constant taping makes them feel (the sense that Jian was talking about in the interview) than with the benefit of taped-and-traded shows. I think the benefit is obvious: taped shows have made some fans out of people who ordinarily wouldn't have had much of a Fruvous recordings selection at their local music store, or who might have needed a little extra push (we all know that a live show simply must be experienced, when it comes to Fruvous). Granted, that was more of an issue when Wood and b hadn't been released in the States, and when Live Noise was not yet a reality. But the point is, yes, the band has benefited greatly from taping. >I would rather see one amazing show that was never taped, then own >copies of five shows that I wasn't even present at. I know exactly what you mean. My SO went to Montreal without me last... November, was it?... and taped the show there. Upon returning, he was really excited about it (was a great recording, quality-wise) and told me that I *had* to listen to it. I did. My impression was that you had to have been there. So much of Fruvous is just not tapeable... - -v - -------- Vika Zafrin -------- vika@attglobal.net -------- http://www.brown.edu/Research/Decameron "You never know where you're going 'til you know where you've been." -Will Smith's dad ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:38:57 -0500 From: "Kate Leahy" Subject: Re: Toronto Sun interview, Dec. 7th >I can read, Kate As can I. Hence the post. >I don't share that sense. The difference is that you >primarily go to shows in the east, where virtually every show is taped. Right. I do see mostly shows in the east. Being a resident of the east coast who has any number of obligations to fulfill here, I refrain from travelling like you do. Besides, it's rare that I dare to write about an experience I haven't had. >What I said is that *my* sense is that taping is not a blanket that >covers the Fruvous scene, although that does happen to be true in one >geographical area. I made the effort to branch out geographically this >year, so my viewpoint is going to be different than yours. And what *I* said is that *my* sense is that it *is*. I can read, Amanda, and it doesn't take an English degree to notice an opinion. The only reason I made a corrective-type statement at the beginning of my post is that you came across in your post to be clarifying Jian's statement. Because we all know that Jian has in the past made ridiculously erroneous statements ("We haven't played this song in three years!"), albeit harmlessly, I wanted to ensure that his words were not twisted by your catalog. Amanda, you've said repeatedly that you've seen 30+ shows. You name four at which there were no tapers. That (with my horrid math skills) means that something like 75% (or more) of the shows you saw were taped. That seems like a rather large percentage to me. Next time, I will be sure to see every show in a tour so that I can travel to places where there isn't a taping rig before stating my own opinion. >We all benefit from a few people being willing to tape, and a few >others being willing to trade; we benefit from the band's support of >non-commercial taping. I think we owe all those people our thanks, not >snarky remarks. I appreciate Jason. I appreciate Chad. I appreciate Joe. I appreciate the other loyal fans and tapers who have gotten to know the band well and tape for happy purposes and respect their wishes. I *don't* appreciate those who relish the thought of sneaking taping equipment past security at various venues which disallow taping, or events at which taping priviledges have been expressly denied (outside of last month's moratorium). I *don't* appreciate the guy I saw stealthing the Point show this summer. My comment wasn't directed at any of the Usual Suspects, and I think they know that. It was pointed rather at the intermittent stealthers who seem to derive some sort of odd pleasure from having every damn thing the band does on tape, and those who I heard/saw whine when the band asked for the no-taping moratorium. No, this does not mean Chad or Jason, both of whom I saw that week, and both of whom seemed to me perfectly content (not that I wouldn't expect them to be). This means the random guy near the bathroom at the Keswick who was bitching and moaning about how security wouldn't let him in with his stealth rig. I'm very sorry, Amanda, that I thought I was welcome to share *my* opinion here. I will defer to your obviously more valuable expertise next time. ~~Kate, who a) can't believe she just wasted that time defending herself, b) knows full well how "snarky," or whatever, her comments were, and c) is kicking herself for not channeling that burst of writing energy into the Hamlet paper a couple of windows down. *sigh* - -- Kate Leahy kleahy@loyola.edu katiewow@fruhead.com *********************************** "It's a long long road It's a big big world We are wise wise women We are giggling girls . . . " - --Ani DiFranco *********************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 07:23:03 -0800 From: ACW Subject: Re: Somerville review from MIT's _The Tech_ In article <384efc44.43958990@ny.news.verio.net>, jbardhan@demon.ceh.servtech.com (Neil Bardhan) wrote: > On 08 Dec 1999 19:30:55 -0500, brian tivol wrote: > OK, I read this, and I'm a bit mystified to the TDS--PalmPilot > connection. Someone help me out pls? I assume it's just something that lights up. Remember that dreadful ad a few years ago for some cell phone company, in which "fans" at a Celine Dion "show" held up their "phones" during a slow "song"? Like that, only not. In any case, I didn't notice the Pilots up in the nosebleed seats at the Somerville Theatre; I also think I enjoyed the show more than the reviewer. Oh well. - --Amanda, reluctant to find (we're) Stuck in the 90s (1) (1) Ellen, don't kill me for being cheesy! * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:24:57 -0500 From: "^kat^" Subject: Re: Toronto Setlist with dar as opener, you heard bed & breakfast, morphee *and* today's the day...? *sigh* i'd be depressed if i hadn't had a banner day in NYC yesterday. maybe they'll play a couple of those in NoHo or buffalo... ^kat^ "swinging out over the dark water" http://fly.to/the.midway.after.dark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 12:01:28 -0500 From: "Gordon Elgart" Subject: Re: PENIS..ENLARGEMENT...3-5.INCHES!!!...FREE..INFO!! 1950 Why does he think I need this? Gee wiz...just because he needs it doesn't mean he has to tell me about it. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 08:35:32 -0800 From: Ellen Subject: Re: Somerville review from MIT's _The Tech_ In article <0221c012.6221a1d4@usw-ex0101-008.remarq.com>, ACW wrote: > --Amanda, reluctant to find (we're) Stuck in the 90s (1) > (1) Ellen, don't kill me for being cheesy! Sorry, too late. I know where you live. The stink bombs will be arriving shortly. peace ellen (never mind that i'll be humming this song a lot as my 30th birthday approaches. ;) * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 11:25:00 -0500 From: Chad Maloney Subject: Re: Toronto Sun interview, Dec. 7th ACW wrote: > I can read, Kate; I don't share that sense. I'm gonna bet that 100% of the people on the newsgroup can read. I may be wrong, but I'll go out on that limb. > The difference is that you > primarily go to shows in the east, where virtually every show is taped. > What I said is that *my* sense is that taping is not a blanket that > covers the Fruvous scene, although that does happen to be true in one > geographical area. If a blanket covers everything but your head and feet, is it still considered a blanket? > By no means do I think Jian's statement was invalid, I was just > pointing out that *I* don't feel that Fruvous tapers are that > overwhelming. But Jian wasn't stating that Fruvous tapers are overwhelming either. The pressure of knowing that everything you do is being recorded and will be available after the fact IS. > Kate Leahy: > > I feel sometimes like there are people who would record > > the band snoring if they sold taper tickets. > > The people who tape Fruvous respected the ban. In my experience, > they're careful about who they trade with and very much aware that > taping is a privelege. If that's really how you feel about tapers and > taping, think about your collection of recordings of live shows. When I read that, she wasn't talking about any of the tapers I know. The people who want to record the band snoring AREN'T the people doing the taping. The people I know well that do regular taping care deeply about this band. They also are techheads who like amateur taping. That's their hobby and they love to do it. They love being stressed out before shows worrying about where to get the best sound. They love adding just the right amount of compression to make the tape sound incredible. They incredibly love it when a recording made by one of them gets onto an officially released CD. The people that tape Moxy Fruvous tape Moxy Fruvous because each show can be completely different. Each should could have a gem improv like Lowest Highest Point. Yes, some shows have completely terrible improvs that go nowhere and last 15 minutes. Them's the breaks, buddy. The price you pay with tapers is that you don't only get the Lowest Highest Points on tape, you get the shitty improv on tape too. You get Jian trying to call his dad from a cell phone to wish him happy birthday and not getting through at all and finally giving up. And many people want everything they can get their hands on. The band isn't worried about the gem improvs getting listened to; they are worried about the other stuff. The less than stellar stuff that doesn't represent what they want persisted of the band. Each show is completely different and tapers appreciate that and want to archive as much as they can. That's how they work. They don't want to pressure the band into doing great shows. If I could have an invisible taping rig and be a complete observer to the show and still capture it, that would be incredible. But it doesn't work that way. There are two bad sides of taping to me. One is that the band sees that what they are doing is more than just spur of the moment stuff and they may be accountable for what they do. The other is that tapers have outside worries and aren't completely into the show. To me, the taping moratorium was explicitly for letting both those things above relax a bit. It was nice to not have to deal with equiptment at Philly and at DC. It was nice to be able to enjoy the show without worrying about talking people around me. I can only hope the band could relax a bit and have some fun for those shows too. > I think we owe all those people our thanks, not > snarky remarks. As one of those people, I didn't perceive any snarky remarks from Katie aimed at me or tapers in general. - Chad ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 18:44:48 GMT From: hugrod@home.com (Hugo Rodrigues) Subject: Re: Share your ideas for #moxyfruvous In article <82nf88$rcn$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>, "Adam Hartfield" wrote: >In this upcoming week, ending on Wednesday, December 15, #moxyfruvous, the >Undernet IRC channel, is being reorganized. People who would like to have >input on the new structure of the channel are invited to come into the >channel to share their ideas. Well, this invitation to discussion is overdue, but welcome. As someone who has been involved in #moxyfruvous since its inception, I'd like to start right off the top of my post today by admitting that I was, am, and always will be biased when discussing #mf. I will always stand and be fiercely protective of a channel where I feel that all people can be comfortable chatting, listening and being in each other's company. I'm also no stranger to the fact that this current round of self-examination was brought on because of my actions a week ago Wednesday. If you would like my explanation for why I took those actions, then please feel free to email me privately. I would be more than happy to explain why I said what I did. I second Adam in encouraging anyone who feels they have something to offer in this 'restructuring' to speak up. If as a group of mature individuals we can reach a consensus on what we believe is appropriate behaviour within the channel, then the only benefit will be to the channel. If, however, we are too short-sighted to see beyond our own opinions and refuse to be a part of a consensus on channel behaviour, then I don't see how #moxyfruvous will ever avoid the petty and immature arguments, behaviour and actions that I've observed (and admittedly been a party to) in the last week. If consensus cannot be reached, then perhaps now is the time to shut down the channel, unregister it with Undernet, and carry on in unregistered channels of our own choosing. Think about it. "Anything looks good when embroidered on a polyester shirt." -- Arrogant Worms, "Let's go bowling" *MOO*MOO*MOO*MOO*MOO*MOO*MOO*MOO*MOO*MOO* Hugo Rodrigues Hugs on the Undernet / 49272270 ICQ Journalism Student http://members.home.net/hugrod/ Forever Fruvous!!! *MOO*MOO*MOO*MOO*MOO*MOO*MOO*MOO*MOO*MOO* ------------------------------ End of alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V3 #1007 *********************************************