From: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org (alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest) To: ammf-digest@smoe.org Subject: alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V2 #138 Reply-To: ammf@fruvous.com Sender: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest Friday, December 18 1998 Volume 02 : Number 138 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Gulf War - Part II ["amy" ] Ro(/u)sh Hashanah [Srm9988n@aol.com] Re: [Re: Tripping over my Soapbox (Gulf War Song II)] [Angie Armstrong ] Re: Math Man (was Rush Hashanah and then politics, gulf war and square one...geez this is getting long!) [] Re: Gulf War: Take Two (Was Gulf War Part II, Gulf War Song II, etc) [pe] Re: Gulf War: Take Two (Was Gulf War Part II, Gulf War Song II, etc) [sh] Indie Tape Auction [bodaceah@aol.com (Bodaceah)] Re: [Re: Tripping over my Soapbox (Gulf War Song II)] [lesystemed@aol.com] Immigration (was: Gulf War -- Part II) [Snow In Summer ] Re: Indie Tape Auction [kevin@kevin.research-inc.com ()] Re: Gulf War - Part II [cookie ] Re: The Murray's Hair Thread? [Fru-Monique ] Re: The Dave Thread [Fru-Monique ] Re: new to the group [lesystemed@aol.com (LeSystemeD)] Re: Gulf War - Part II [lesystemed@aol.com (LeSystemeD)] Re: Holiday Music [lesystemed@aol.com (LeSystemeD)] Rushmas carol [lesystemed@aol.com (LeSystemeD)] Gulf War Stuff: Supporting our boys over there. [lesystemed@aol.com (LeSy] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 18 Dec 1998 21:15:09 GMT From: "amy" Subject: Re: Gulf War - Part II It's a great relief to me to hear that there are people in other countries who get that not all Americans have lost their minds. I keep thinking, well, if it's the general consensus among the American public (as evidenced by all those damn polls the media keep going on about) that we don't want to see Clinton impeached, then how has the process gotten this far? Why isn't the entire Congress now afraid they'll be voted out of office next election by their consituency which disagrees with what they're doing? This is probably a naive viewpoint, but I've certainly mentioned that in my emails to my representatives -- I fully intend to vote against anyone who represents me who has participated in this utter nonsense. I've been wondering what the Palestinians and the Israelis must have been thinking last week when Clinton was over there. I can't help seeing an image of everyone snickering as he walked by . . . how depressing -- our president, and our whole government, has turned into a pathetic joke. - -- amy P. S. thanks, Richard, for the quote -- you've quite succinctly expressed my own views on this subject! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---------------------- The US congress seems to have got its head stuck up its own backside. --Richard Butterworth - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ----------------------- Richard Butterworth wrote in article <367A3C05.9829E6EC@mdx.NONASTYSPAM.ac.uk>... > Okay, I thought I'd just pop in and bore you all rigid with my thoughts on the > Gulf. > > Its good to see that many of the posters here have dealt with the human side of > the war, this has been pathetically missing in the British media reports. Lets > show some exciting shots of planes taking off and explosions on the skyline. > Human life is more important than politics. `We should care for each other more > than we care for ideas.' > > I'd just like to make a couple of specific points though... > > The republican reposnse to this has been pathetic. A war is more important than > impeachment proceedings. The US congress seems to have got its head stuck up its > own backside. The republican obssession with the Monica Lewinsky affair not only > brings them into disrepute, but it makes the whole American system look utterly > farcical and trivial to outside observers. Cough. Like me, for example. US > citizens deserve better. (At least the ones I've met do.) > > Secondly, and this one really has got me fuming and throwing my footware at the > radio, the Ramadan argument. What sort of *pathetic* argument is it when you say > you're going to respect people by stopping raining bombs on them during their > religious festival? If someone decided to kill me with a missile, I wouldn't have > greater respect for their sensitivity because they chose not to do it on my > birthday. > > There, and I managed to get through that without swearing once. :) > > Tinkerty tonk > Richard > ------------------------------------------------------ > `I was a rose in April and still a rose in June, > I fear that come the winter I shall no longer bloom.' > Kate Rusby > ------------------------------------------------------ > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 22:06:16 GMT From: Srm9988n@aol.com Subject: Ro(/u)sh Hashanah >Someone asked (I think it was Lori) what Rosh Hashanah was...or maybe she >asked what RUSH Hashanah was, and I'm just randomly spewing knowledge. Me me me! but i wanted to know WHEN we should "celebrate" RUSH H. Always has been a puzzle to me -- there seems no direct correlation with the new year. Election day, perhaps, if the far-right loonies are doing well? Or inauguration day in the same event? In which case I personally hope we get the chance to enjoy ourselves with this unique holiday at *no* time in the near future. ;-) >Rosh Hashanah - >It is basically the Jewish New Year. It's right after Yom Kippur in the >fall. - -- Lori ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 21:47:47 GMT From: Angie Armstrong Subject: Re: [Re: Tripping over my Soapbox (Gulf War Song II)] After quoting Jake, Steve commented: [>assassinating >the leader of a foreign country tends to make other foreign leaders a bit >nervous. And that's not always a good thing. Not to mention it's specifically prohibited to the US government. Other governments have their own rules. Regards, Steve] Black and white on paper, gray in practice. I know first hand because my dad has quite the wonderful gash just below his left kidney from a Viet Cong bayonet... and all he has to show for his time in Viet Nam is a fading tatoo on his back that he and his special unit all got before going overseas. He was an army covert operations person, for lack of a better term he was an Army Mercenary. His unit was captured in Viet Nam and were POWs for almost a year. He suffered atrocities that to this day he can't mention. He still sleeps with a weapon of some sort under his bed. He still sleeps with one eye open. The mission during which they were captured was one of those "hush hush" missions... where if they were captured or the mission failed, the US would deny knowledge of the incident. There is no official record of my dad being in Viet Nam, therefore he is ineligible for Veteran's benefits, I was ineligible for any kind of aid for children of Veterans. My real father (I'm adopted) was my dad's best friend and died in his arms in Viet Nam and there's no record of him. In spite of all of this, my dad is proud to be an American and has told me time and time again that he'd do it all over again... and if he were able he'd go over and take care of Saddam. I don't bring this up out of sympathy or to try and say that my idea is sound... only to say that it does happen and in spite of what it says in the law books... when something needs to get done it mysteriously gets done. - --Angie I'll hold the hope that we won't part and I'll hold off death so I can live with you - Moxy Früvous ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 22:20:33 GMT From: Srm9988n@aol.com Subject: Ro(/u)sh Hashanah Alan wrote: >As for the story >behind Hannukah, it has something to do with oil burning longer that was >expected, 8 days and 8 nights, hence the Menorah with its 8 candles. After an invasion and desecration, the Jews returned to their temple, which needed to be purified by ritual burning of a lamp for 8 days and 8 nights. There was only enough oil for 1 day/1 night, but miraculously it lasted the whole eight days, until a new batch of oil could be produced. - -- Lori ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 22:36:47 GMT From: Eve Lauria Subject: Re: Gulf War - Part II d says: > and i'd think that if i lived in a country for...8 years, and in YEAR ONE my > leader invaded another country for it's resources just cause he could, and > then was summarily bombed and invaded and told to cool it; and then YEARS > TWO THROUGH SEVEN comprised all these other countries trying to monitor him > and make sure he doesn't act up again as he scurries around evasively like a > schoolyard bully being chased by the administrative staff; and then YEAR > EIGHT begins the bombing again...you know, i think i would seriously have to > reconsider my residence. I need to pick at this. All the arguments I've read on here are very sound, and personally, I know very little about politics etc. so I'm not going to advance an opinion except to say that I'm emotionally opposed to violence of any kind. But, I need to add to this intelligent argument that it's not that easy to move. It requires money. Most of the people in the world do not have money. It requires passports, visas. Permission to leave the country and permission to enter whatever country you're moving to. There is also emotional cost. You have to leave your loved ones often, or at least your friends and most of the people you've known all of your life. You have to leave the society you have grown up in and feel comfortable in and go to another place where customs are different and foreign and you feel lost and alone and you don't know anyone. It isn't that easy to just say..."off I go!" Eve ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 23:27:26 GMT From: petit_chou@juno.com Subject: Re: Math Man (was Rush Hashanah and then politics, gulf war and square one...geez this is getting long!) >Using developing technologies (underground research), we turn the two opponents into >characters on the MathMan game on Square One. Then we'll see who comes out >on top fair and 'square'! =) YAAAAY! Another Square One fan! Good call, Tom Heather Moore ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 23:25:17 GMT From: petit_chou@juno.com Subject: Re: Gulf War: Take Two (Was Gulf War Part II, Gulf War Song II, etc) Dan said: >It's not by their choice: they were ordered there. We're not risking our lives. The President >isn't. They are. Wait a sec, none of these bold men and women are there involuntarily (i.e. draft). They all signed up for the military. They went in with the understanding that once in a rare while, we do attack and, yes, we even kill. A very good friend of mine went into the ARMY, and there he learned a drill. When the officer yells, "Ready!" you get into ready position and yell, "Kill!" When the officer yells, "Retreat!" you yell, "NEVER!" This scared the shit out of me. >Whether we support these strikes or not, shouldn't we support our >family members, our friends that are over there, fighting for freedom? Who's freedom are they fighting for? The US? We've got it (more or less). The Iraqi's? Freedom isn't the way in some countries, and it's scary to me to impose our ideals on different cultures. But you know who I'm praying for? The families and friends of those soldiers. I can't imagine having my dad or brother over there. I think I'd be unable to sleep, I'd be so worried. And I'm praying for the "delinquent" kids who were put in the military by frustrated parents who didn't know how to handle their own child. For the record, my dad is an old NAVY-guy, and I've always been awed by the determination and the resolve with which many soldiers go into combat. It takes guts and it takes will. However, just because they're in a dangerous situation doesn't mean I HAVE to support them. They knew from day one that there was the possibility of something like this. It's not like they were led blindly into Iraq thinking they were going to a party. To quickly reiterate, it's the families that I worry about and support. May God (or their god, or whatever) bring them solace and comfort whilst their loved ones are away. Heather Moore (ducking to avoid the blows of the angry ng'ers) ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 00:08:18 GMT From: shazalinrea@juno.com (Mindy J Munson) Subject: Re: Gulf War: Take Two (Was Gulf War Part II, Gulf War Song II, etc) On Fri, 18 Dec 1998 23:25:17 GMT petit_chou@juno.com writes: >snip< >>Whether we support these strikes or not, shouldn't we support our >>family members, our friends that are over there, fighting for >freedom? > >Who's freedom are they fighting for? The US? We've got it (more or >less). The Iraqi's? Freedom isn't the way in some countries, and >it's scary to me to impose our ideals on different cultures. But you >know who I'm praying for? The families and friends of those soldiers. > I can't imagine having my dad or brother over there. I think I'd be >unable to sleep, I'd be so worried. And I'm praying for the >"delinquent" kids who were put in the military by frustrated parents >who didn't know how to handle their own child. > >For the record, my dad is an old NAVY-guy, and I've always been awed >by the determination and the resolve with which many soldiers go into >combat. It takes guts and it takes will. However, just because >they're in a dangerous situation doesn't mean I HAVE to support them. >They knew from day one that there was the possibility of something >like this. It's not like they were led blindly into Iraq thinking >they were going to a party. To quickly reiterate, it's the families >that I worry about and support. May God (or their god, or whatever) >bring them solace and comfort whilst their loved ones are away. > >Heather Moore (ducking to avoid the blows of the angry ng'ers) I just want to saythank you Heather. I see no need for you to duck. Fruchild ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: 19 Dec 1998 00:44:26 GMT From: bodaceah@aol.com (Bodaceah) Subject: Indie Tape Auction I had no problem with selling the tape to the highest bidder. I attempted to purchase it but my own conscience wouldn't allow me to get involved in an auction. That was my problem not his. However i received this letter in the mail today and this is what i have a problem with. I don't even think he is allowed to do this legally, but maybe those of you more knowledgable about copywrite laws could say for sure. I am talking about the part where he offers to make copies for $10. jude "Hello and thank-you to everyone that bidded in the Moxy Fruvous indie Tape auction - the tape went for $36! The next highest bidders are being kept on file should future copies turn up. Thanks, Trevor If anyone is interested in a tape dub with a full colour sleevescan, I can do them for $10 plus $3 postage." - ---------- ------------------------------ Date: 19 Dec 1998 00:43:03 GMT From: lesystemed@aol.com (LeSystemeD) Subject: Re: [Re: Tripping over my Soapbox (Gulf War Song II)] In article <19981218214225.6545.qmail@ww183.netaddress.usa.net>, citing (someone's) experiences in Vietnam to poo-poo the notion that assassinating a foreign leader is against United States law, Angie wrote: > in spite of what it says in >the >law books... when something needs to get done it mysteriously gets done. > > The ban on assassination in Executive Order 12333 of Dec. 4, 1981; experiences in Vietnam and the CIA record of attempted assassination of Fidel Castro were among the reasons for the order. It has been taken very seriously since then. Some editorialists say that Saddam is a reason for revoking the order, but that is unlikely to happen. If not for this law, Saddam would have been a target last time. Some believe that Ghaddafi was a target in the raid on Tripoli some years ago (that killed his daughter, I believe), but at least that was vigorously denied. Regards, Steve ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 00:54:36 GMT From: Snow In Summer Subject: Immigration (was: Gulf War -- Part II) Eve in Oberlin, OH noted: :I need to add to this intelligent argument :that it's not that easy to move. It requires money. Most of the people :in the world do not have money. It requires passports, visas. Permission :to leave the country and permission to enter whatever country you're :moving to. I've been considering immigrating to Canada for a couple years now... and only in the past few months have I actually researched it. To become a permanent resident of Canada, it takes US$960 in fees and Cdn$10000 in available cash to be considered for entrance. In addition, one must interview with an Immigration officer. After all of this, one can still be denied admission to the country. *returns to topic* This is the process most of us would go through in moving into a new country. However (as most of us know), people escaping from war- torn countries can immigrate much faster under refugee status... which takes less time and money than the normal immigration process. :There is also emotional cost. You have to leave your loved :ones often, or at least your friends and most of the people you've known :all of your life. You have to leave the society you have grown up in and :feel comfortable in and go to another place where customs are different :and foreign and you feel lost and alone and you don't know anyone. It :isn't that easy to just say..."off I go!" It's not as hard as one would think, moving to a "foreign" place. This may be a bad example, but in August I left my parents home in small town PA and moved to Buffalo... a city in which i knew 1 person. It isn't the easiest thing to do... leaving one's friends and family. If your situation is dire enough, however, you find the hidden strength w/in yourself to put the possible loneliness behind and do what is best for yourself. - -Snow, wondering if she makes any sense at all ****************************************************************************** "Life is what happens while you're making other plans." ****************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: 19 Dec 1998 01:27:23 GMT From: kevin@kevin.research-inc.com () Subject: Re: Indie Tape Auction >If anyone is interested in a tape dub with a full colour sleevescan, I can >do them for $10 plus $3 postage." why do I have this odd feeling that he doesn't have the band's blessing on this one? easiest response? don't get mad, just nobody do it. There's lots of fruheads with indie tapes who will gladly make copies for free or for even trades. This will probably be easier and more effective than wasting bandwidth with angry letters to a guy who obviously just doesn't get it. Kevin Way ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:11:37 -0800 From: cookie Subject: Re: Gulf War - Part II Richard Butterworth wrote: > > Okay, I thought I'd just pop in and bore you all rigid with my thoughts on the > Gulf. > The republican reposnse to this has been pathetic. A war is more important than > impeachment proceedings. The US congress seems to have got its head stuck up its > own backside. The republican obssession with the Monica Lewinsky affair not only > brings them into disrepute, but it makes the whole American system look utterly > farcical and trivial to outside observers. Cough. Like me, for example. US > citizens deserve better. (At least the ones I've met do.) Well spoken, Richard! I was going to post a fabulous, Pulitzer-prize worthy, editorial essay on this subject that I wrote yesterday, but before I could send it, I had a power glitch and lost it. Since this is such a warm, fuzzy, co-dependent, yet curiously bipolar newsgroup, I'll attempt to recreate it today. (It's great to read a newsgroup where debates regarding the political and moral issues of Operation Desert Fox are interspersed with debates regarding Murray's pants!) Here's my rather lengthy views on the current state of affairs: Being one of the 4% of currently unemployed Americans, I have had a lot of time to contemplate the current situation in the Gulf. On Wednesday, as I was watching TV and flipping between Ricky Lake and Jenny Jones, I found out that we had started bombing Iraq a few minutes earlier. I was surprised--yet not shocked--since the volatility of this situation has been common knowledge for several weeks. The first thought in my head was that this was an effort to avert attention from the impeachment proceedings. A few minutes later, after I heard Prime Minister Tony Blair explain the combined actions of the United States and the UK, I felt ashamed that I would have been so quick to judge the actions of our military. When President Clinton spoke a few minutes after the Prime Minister--although the reasons given for the military attack appeared to be logical and founded--I still had a lingering question in the back of my mind that this could be only a political maneuver. This brought up a moral quandary which is still pestering me today. It is an abomination that I am unable to hear the President of the United States explain a military action without second-guessing his motives. The cynicism that I feel in regard to our country's leaders is the inevitable result of a quarter of a century of political dirty pool and media frenzy. Ever since Watergate, politicians and the media have made a concerted attempt to sway the American people by using shameless, underhanded, and sometimes illegal methods in an attempt to gain power and personal fame. As a result, I feel I have been cheated out of the opportunity to have any faith or trust whatsoever in anything I read or hear regarding our government. Our political leaders seem to have not grasped the fact that no one seems to believe anything any of them have to say anymore. The bipartisan power struggle games that are currently being played out confirms the fact that our political parties actually believe that they can acquire power by tearing down the opponent. Yesterday, our Speaker of the House Elect came forward and admitted he had had several "marital indiscretions," and he would offer up his resignation if it was asked for. The Republicans followed up with the comment that they would probably not ask for his resignation based on this information due to the fact that: a) He did not have a sexual tryst with a member of his staff, and; b) He didn't lie about it under oath. How stupid do these people think the American people are? If we are supposed to suspect (as we do) that President Clinton would start a massive war in the Middle East do divert attention from his job review, then why would these people assume that we wouldn't be able to see through such a transparent and blatant double standard? Are we really supposed to believe that the persons who are responsible for possibly succeeding in removing the President of the United States from office based on "marital indiscretions," are exempt from upholding the "family values" standard to which they condemn others? Let's get real. If Clinton is impeached, it is because he had an extra-marital affair and got caught...period. All the "obstruction of justice" and "perjury" claims are just technicalities on which the Republicans are jumping to solidify a weak political position so they might once again assume power. Unfortunately for President Clinton and the welfare of this country, it appears they just might win this battle. Today is the day the impeachment debate will be held. Apparently, some people who currently have jobs in the Senate believe postponing the debate to Monday (or some time in the future when we're not busy bombing the #*&@ out of Baghdad) would potentially weaken their case. Although the impeachment proceedings are extremely important, I believe that once American citizens are placed in a military action, it is our moral and ethical duty to fully support those people who are risking their lives. I just really want to know: Have we learned NOTHING from Vietnam? So, President Clinton may be removed from office a day or two earlier than if they postponed the debate. Big deal. I'd save the guy a spot in the unemployment line next to me if it means we could--for a few days--unite as a country and show the respect due to our military personnel. Unfortunately, that isn't going to happen. My prayers go out to the citizens of Iraq and to the soldiers who are representing their respective countries in this war, and to the future of this country and its political system. All great empires do fall eventually, and this may be the beginning of the end of one of the most successful political experiments ever. As for Murray's pants: I think whether he chooses to wear them or not, the important thing is that he's comfortable. A rather long-winded and opinionated, Cookie Respond to: cookie@2cowherd.net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 02:44:46 GMT From: Fru-Monique Subject: Re: The Murray's Hair Thread? > True, true. Im beginning to think more and more that I will take French > in college just so I can understand you guys! =+) > > Fruchild Yes do! Take French and then tell Murray in French how good he looks in any hairstyle. ;) Monique _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 03:06:45 GMT From: Fru-Monique Subject: Re: The Dave Thread - ---epbuckley@my-dejanews.com wrote: > > does anyone else find it incredibly *sexy* the way dave's scalp seems to kind > of... glisten... under the lights? i go all ashiver when i see that. i wish > he'd let me polish it sometime. > > peace, > ellen Ellen, I think you and I are kindred spirits! I've always thought of that.... Sighs, Monique _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: 19 Dec 1998 03:28:17 GMT From: lesystemed@aol.com (LeSystemeD) Subject: Re: new to the group >Pick up Wood and You Will Go To The Moon when you >get a chance. > I read this as saying "If you pick up wood, you will go to the moon when you get a chance". Regards, Steve ------------------------------ Date: 19 Dec 1998 03:28:07 GMT From: lesystemed@aol.com (LeSystemeD) Subject: Re: Gulf War - Part II In article <01be2acc$1972c700$ba1d6bd1@850176761>, "amy" wrote: >Why >isn't the entire Congress now afraid they'll be voted out of office next >election by their consituency which disagrees with what they're doing? > Well, um, because, by November 2000, we won't remember. Regards, Um...oh, yeah. Steve. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Dec 1998 03:28:12 GMT From: lesystemed@aol.com (LeSystemeD) Subject: Re: Holiday Music In article <75e9p0$3h7@pop.sneaker.net>, "Schwan, wrote: >Jason spake: >>Depends if you want the original record version or want to get it on cd. > >Record...? What's that.....? > A record is a memorandum of something. A CD is a record. A tape is a record, and an LP is a record. They all can be albums, too (album being a container for a collection of things). The designations that I feel only apply to vinyl (or flat material etched with wavy grooves) are "LP", "45" or "78". "EP" might be, but I've heard it applied to CDs recently. The language is how it's used. Regards Steve "Why do they call it 'recording'?" ------------------------------ Date: 19 Dec 1998 03:28:21 GMT From: lesystemed@aol.com (LeSystemeD) Subject: Rushmas carol The Rushmas Song (apologies to Mel Tormé) Gun nuts boasting that they'll open fire, Moralists looking up your nose. Right-to-life and the NRA, And posters of the pre-born's toes. Everybody knows Bill Clinton is a Satan spawn; Tax-achussets, Babylon. Ditto-heads, with their credit cards raised Will buy his books and stand amazed. They know that Rush is always right And they know they never can give up the fight Till every welfare queen is on her knees Scrubbing floors or serving Tastee Freeze. And so I'm dittoing this simple phrase For each right-thinking buckaroo: Although it's been said, many times, many ways A RIGHT GOOD Rushmas, to you. (With fervent thanks to Bill Tong, for the first line) Regards, Steve ------------------------------ Date: 19 Dec 1998 03:28:01 GMT From: lesystemed@aol.com (LeSystemeD) Subject: Gulf War Stuff: Supporting our boys over there. The modern political notion of "supporting our troops" while disagreeing with the people who order them to do what they do goes back to a problem that people had with Vietnam. Vietnam vets came back and faced people (young, thoughtless people mostly) calling them baby-killers, when many of them had been drafted and too idealistic or uninformed to resist. Nobody wants to repeat that scenario. Many of the soldiers probably were gung-ho: most Americans early in the war were so. Many Americans remain gung-ho today; it's an opinion. Sometimes our opinions have extreme consequences. Sometimes our opinions feel like moral necessities. Some of us think that our opinions are ordained by a supernatural power, the ruler of the universe. Some of us worry that nothing we know is true. The best lack all conviction while the worst are full of passionate intensity. When I went by Grand Central Station the other day, protestors were chanting "One, two, three, four, we don't want no racist war." I wondered which war they were talking about. (Not really, but just for the sake of argument). What war has there been that couldn't be labelled racist? Does the fact that Iraqis are "brown" mean we can't take measures against them or their leaders or military institutions, when they threaten world peace with saber-rattling and weapons production? It's the non-european nations, many of them held down by european colonialism for so long, that get into trouble nowadays; there are nutty dictators in the middle east and Africa *Because of historical disadvantages put upon those people by europeans* and not too many in Europe. Does this make opposing nutty dictators racism? You have to be careful when your calculations are tainted by words like "Wog", "Gook", or "Boris" or "Guinea". I just don't think that happens very much anymore in Europe or North America. Maybe I'm over-optimistic, but I think race plays a very tiny role in these decisions compared to economics and, well, threats and dictatorial misbehavior. Just a few, Steverino ------------------------------ End of alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V2 #138 ********************************************