From: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org (alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest) To: ammf-digest@smoe.org Subject: alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V2 #107 Reply-To: ammf@fruvous.com Sender: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest Wednesday, December 9 1998 Volume 02 : Number 107 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Big favour [vika@ibm.net (Vika Zafrin)] Re: Big favour [vika@ibm.net (Vika Zafrin)] Re: [December 3 Clinton review] [Angie Armstrong ] Re: Stolen Moxy Art on the Web!?!? [fgardine@uoguelph.ca (F. Gardiner)] FruTrip: Clinton to Quebec [Srm9988n@aol.com] Re: December 3 Clinton review [Chad Maloney ] Re: Stolen Moxy Art on the Web!?!? ["Schwan, Phil" ] Re: Stolen Moxy Art on the Web!?!? ["Schwan, Phil" ] Re: Nature Sound of NGs [Gruneberg Veronica J <6vjg@qlink.queensu.ca>] Re: '98 Remembered ["KatieWow" ] Re: another Pointe-Claire review [kevin@mail.research-inc.com ()] Re: Gulf War Song: It Still Applies ["A.J. LoCicero" ] Re: Stolen Moxy Art on the Web!?!? [fgardine@uoguelph.ca (F. Gardiner)] RE: on female circumcision... ["Demetriou, Melanie" Um, Lynne? I thought we went over this already... You even sent me >an e-mail saying that you'd be doing stuff for NYE since Chris (it's >his web site, not mine, I just gather/filter information) already has >one for FruCon. I should also add that the frucon2.html page also has a link to Lynne's, so you're welcome and encouraged to go check that out, as well. Vika Zafrin vika@ibm.net "The wonderful thing about Shakespeare is that when it's done well, it makes people feel smarter than they are. As opposed to dumber than they are. There is really no in-between." - Spencer Golub ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 12:47:13 GMT From: vika@ibm.net (Vika Zafrin) Subject: Re: Big favour Lynne Fisher delighted us with: >I dont know if Vika's FruCon page includes a "roadtripping" section, if not >lemme know and I can work on it. (Actually I may not have much access to a >computer from 12/22-1/4 but I'll do my best) If there is one, my advice >would be to check it out, its on the happy fruvous homepage.... Um, Lynne? I thought we went over this already... You even sent me an e-mail saying that you'd be doing stuff for NYE since Chris (it's his web site, not mine, I just gather/filter information) already has one for FruCon. The URL that I gave ( http://www.fruvous.com/frucon2.html ) is a general FruCon info page. In it, there's a secion titled "How to get there, where to stay" with a subheader "Frutripping, carpooling, etc.". Which in turn has lots of info for people who wish to e-mail me with their info, if they're willing to give rides. For those who NEED rides, there's a link there to: http://www.fruvous.com/con-trip.html which already has some entries - people's names, when they're going, how many people they can give a ride to, how to get in touch with them, etc. If you're looking to get your info on there, read the web page for the info I'll need from you and drop me a line. Happy surfing, - -v Vika Zafrin vika@ibm.net "The wonderful thing about Shakespeare is that when it's done well, it makes people feel smarter than they are. As opposed to dumber than they are. There is really no in-between." - Spencer Golub ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 13:53:40 GMT From: Angie Armstrong Subject: Re: [December 3 Clinton review] The line is forming in a gazebo-type structure near the 'barn'. The venue is advertised as a barn, but I don't see it... the campus is gorgeous, though. But I digress... There're only about 7 or 8 people in front of us, so we figure all will be well. We get some food and begin the arduous task of waiting for fruvous. The waiting gets tiresome soon enough, so we are forced to find ways to entertain ourselves. We play a couple grade-school type games, solve some riddles, read Bazooka Joe comics, hey it was a Hey Bridget! Were you part of that circle of folks in the middle (well, slightly off-center) of that little gazebo waiting area... that at one point indulged themselves in a back-massage circle?? Wow, Taryn and I were sitting in the back towards one of the windows (Tobey came over at one point and sat with us for awhile). Then we ended up sitting not to far from you're group during the show?? Talk about small worlds! Bummer on the missed opportunity to meet another ng person... But hi again to Caroline, Brenda and her friend (sorry, I can't remember his name), and Novac (I still can't believe you got a ticket to Fri's show... arrgh!!!). I'm still bummed at no Früvous until February (yeah, and still majorly bummed about the dead car)... but I'm in much better spirits today. I'm going out with a new friend to drown my sorrows in Cheese Fries, Wings and Beer at a local joint called the Distillery (Roch folks know what I mean, right?) *sigh* cheese fries... Another something I just _had_ to share: I was at rehearsal last night and we're doing an arrangement of "The Christmas Song" that starts out with the Tenors and Basses mimicing Christmas bells "Ding Dong Ding Dong..." Well, we started the piece, and as the Sopranos and Altos started the verse the director stops us, pauses for a moment and says, "Men, you're dongs need to be a little softer" At which point I completely lost it. Keep in mind this is RIT's Alumni Chorale, of which I'm the second youngest by a bit... it took a few moments before someone else realized why I was cracking up, then they started giggling. My mind in the gutter? Hey, someday I aspire to be elevated to the gutter... ;^) - --Angie "Everyone should be scared of the Bald Man." - Dave Matheson, 12/3 ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 15:00:47 GMT From: "Demetriou, Melanie" Subject: They've given you a number On Sunday, December 06, 1998 11:12 AM, Srm9988n@aol.com [SMTP:Srm9988n@aol.com] wrote: > >Secret Agent Man (Substitute was on the set list) > > AACK! Melanie, maybe together we'll have the strength to get thru this! *sniff* /me nods head *sniff* Melanie, who considers this absolute proof that *somefru* reads this ng ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 14:54:25 GMT From: Cameron_Ross@ufacademy.com (Cameron Ross) Subject: Re: FruHumour ammf@fruvous.com writes: >on mine it looks like it *could* be a "Ho". or maybe not. A Ho!!?? Where!!! /me checks his waqllet to see if he has enough cash. (Finally _I_ am able to do that old a horrible joke - the people who know me on IRC know what I am talking about) Life101 - http://fc.ufacademy.com/~Cameron_Ross if(bored) quote("Last week it was funny, now the jokes wearing thin - BFF"); ------------------------------ Date: 9 Dec 1998 14:55:38 GMT From: dgodwin01@aol.com (DGodwin01) Subject: Fruvous on Video While searching last night, I stumbled across a Video that has Moxy Fruvous in it. The video is designed for Schools. It has several Public Service Announcements from bands, including Moxy Fruvous, BNL, Spirit of the West, 54-40, Prairie Oyster, and others. I don't know if the video is worth getting, but you can order it in VHS format for $20. The Money goes towards the foundation, and its projects. Anyways..just thought I'd pass it along. The website is here: http://www.artistsagainstracism.com/video.html Daniel "signature currently under construction... Come back soon" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 14:51:37 GMT From: drea1@my-dejanews.com Subject: Re: '98 Remembered > (10 Moxy Früvous concerts since July, 1997 and still no 'Gulf War > Song'. I'm beginning to think that should I ever be present when it is > sung, I will remain motionless, reflecting on the experience I just > had. The suspense is killing me, but the wait is worth every harmony.) Tom, I had to wait 4.5 yrs for Gulf War Song (finally heard it at the Saturday night Iron Horse show), and it was well worth the wait! If I had to choose any way to end a year's Frütripping, that would be it..and it was :) I can still remember standing there absolutely frozen in place as the guys sang...There was absolute silence until a few seconds after they finished, then a loud wave of cheers and applause. I'd like to join in the thanks to Früvous as well...Murray, Jian, Mike and Dave, thank you for the music and being four of the sweetest guys I know. The way you try to get to know your fans as individuals and the respect you show them is something new in my experience and greatly appreciated by all of us. (Btw Mike...I don't know how coherent I was after the Friday NoHo show, but thank you again for being willing to share If Only You Knew.. this song means a great deal to me as I live 1700 kms away from my family..) Drea "Everyone's a novelist, and everyone can sing...but no one talks when the tv's on..." - -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 09:08:33 -0600 From: Marty Blase Subject: Stolen Moxy Art on the Web!?!? http://www.zeldman.com/toc.html The terrible, terrible tragedy of it all... and no reverse-linking either. :( - - Marty ------------------------------ Date: 9 Dec 1998 15:42:46 GMT From: fgardine@uoguelph.ca (F. Gardiner) Subject: Re: Stolen Moxy Art on the Web!?!? Marty Blase (mblase@ncsa.uiuc.edu) wrote: : http://www.zeldman.com/toc.html : The terrible, terrible tragedy of it all... and no reverse-linking either. : :( I went and had a look. It's not actually Fruvous art, even though we all associate that guy as such. The album cover for YWGTTM was designed by the people at Helios (check your liner notes for the URL) and they've used the astronaut for other things. They do web design so it's quite possible this guy got help from them, works for them or stole from them (g) but it's not an infringement on Fruvous. Fiona ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 15:43:26 GMT From: Srm9988n@aol.com Subject: FruTrip: Clinton to Quebec Ken added to Caroline's touristic info: >The Silver Star Diner - This is right next to the Lincoln Logs building. >Impossible to miss because of the huge statue of a chicken standing right out >front. This is commonly known as the "Chicken Diner" this is the one in Chestertown or another Chicken Diner??? (Like, could there actually be TWO?!) >Loon Lake - We rent a cabin on the lake every summer to stay at... absoultly >beautiful. Loon Lake -- the last time I intentionally got up for sunrise, just so I could go canoeing in the mist.... - -- Lori, drifting way off-topic..... oh yes, btw, visit my newly-chocolatized (new vocab! 'nother thread!) webpage at: http://members.aol.com/srm9988n/sugar.html for Wilmington brownies and other good stuff!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 09:25:38 -0500 From: Chad Maloney Subject: Re: December 3 Clinton review Bridget wrote: > My Poor Generation - OK, so does anyone know why this is NPG on the > setlists? (well, at least on Murray's...) I would guess NPG = New Power Generation which was Prince's band (and may still be the Artist's band, dunno). I'm sure the set lists are pretty much a whim or to entertain fans that are gonna slither to get them. As long as whatever is written on them reminds the person reading of what song they are on, they are doing their job =) > One more thing... I managed to snag Murray's setlist after the show. Before > the first encore, he wrote 'crowd goes crazy, demands more'. Then before > the second encore, he wrote 'crowd REFUSES to leave, they MUST have more > fruvous'. Hee hee. Good example *grin* - Chad ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 09:59:38 -0500 From: Chad Maloney Subject: Drinking and silliness (was Re: Another Pointe-Claire Review) Lynne Fisher wrote: > Do all the guys drink? anyone know? I have received[1] this strange letter that has something to do with this. Why I was on the receiving end of the letter, I have no idea. But it may be of some importance: To Whom It May Concern, Help me. I'm way over worked and sometimes, I just need a break. It wouldn't be so bad when it isn't day in and day out, night after night. I was thinking of trying to escape, but no one has ever done it before. I don't mean harm to him, it's just that he expects me to sit here and do his bidding whenever he needs me. No love. No affection. Not even a thank you every so often. If you have any way of helping me out, it would be much appreciated. Also, some Jaegermeister or Rumple Minze would be nice. Love, Dave's Liver PS Cal's Liver says 'Hi' - Chad ------------------------------ Date: 9 Dec 1998 16:04:52 GMT From: kevin@mail.research-inc.com () Subject: Re: December 3 Clinton review On Tue, 8 Dec 1998 22:16:38 -0700, Bridget wrote: >My Poor Generation - OK, so does anyone know why this is NPG on the >setlists? (well, at least on Murray's...) probably a Murray whim... it's MPG on the setlists I have, the lads seem to write almost anything for anything though... porno for Poor Napolean, etc... Kevin ------------------------------ Date: 9 Dec 1998 16:25:31 GMT From: winnie718@aol.com (Winnie718) Subject: Re: InternationalFru >Can 'those European people' get Fruvous CDs over there? like in Holland? or >even in New Zealand? or do I have to pay shipping?? heehee >-Lynne I was lucky enough to run across a copy of Wood in England (this was before you could get it down here in the States) when I was traveling over there. You know it's bad when that's one of the highlights of your European travelling. I checked places in Germany, Holland, and Spain too just for laughs but nothing, nada, zip, zilch. Those poor europeans! =) Laura ------------------------------ Date: 9 Dec 1998 16:01:14 GMT From: kevin@mail.research-inc.com () Subject: Re: Another Pointe-Claire Review >As has been pointed out, even though we were perhaps the silent minority, >there were a ton of people who travelled to see the show and truly did >appreciate hearing the new songs. Thanks so much for all the great shows this >past years guys - we think you're worth listening to, and more. I know the guys appreciated us that traveled and also those that appreciate the new songs. After the show Mike briefly thanked me for coming and being able to sing along to a lot of the new stuff. (that surprised me since I was stage Murray, and doubted he could really see me) It was definitely a very different show than any I'd been to before, and not a bad conclusion to a fun weekend. Kevin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 16:15:03 GMT From: Srm9988n@aol.com Subject: another Pointe-Claire review Nate DeRose commented: >In addition.... I'd like to say how amazing it is that these guys take >the time to >talk to their fans... listen to their fans..... and really interact >with people on >a personal level. >It's a rarity.... and I know that I speak for a number of people here, >when I say >that us fans out here really appreciate the time and energy that the >band puts >into each and every show they play. Umm, absolutely, and all that. I got majorly ticked off this weekend, because I happened to hear the icky groupie word twice from two different extended-family members in relation to the new webpage, and I was just so frustrated. *pouts* I mean, frankly, they just don't get it. And I don't think they want to get it. They don't understand that this is more than *just* music, more than *just* a band, that I'm not just obsessing from afar, that I actually *like* these guys and you folks, mainly because we *do* have real stuff in common. That we ng types care about each other, and that caring seems to emanate first and foremost from the FruFour, who, although most of us do not know them personally, have shown us nothing but kindness, interest, respect and goodwill. The family members don't want to get it in part, I think, because it would upset all their nicely-ordered views of celebrities as jerks, avid fans as delusional, obsessed people who need to get a life, and so on. And partly I guess they don't want to get it because it's not who they're used to me being. But it seems so dismissive to just label us all "groupies" -- like then no one has to think about what we're really doing here, which among other things involves some pretty deep and lively discussion on topics only remotely connected to favorite songs and favorite FruLads! Brother says: "anyone with a personal relationship with a band is a groupie." Well, I'm not deluding myself by any means into thinking I have a personal relationship with any of the guys. And that's not *my* definition of groupie anyway (I think more along the lines of Pamela Des Barres, etc.) But I do have something with Fruvous that I've never had with any other remotely well-known performer. These are four genuine, down-to-earth people I can laugh with, clown around with, share brownies with, ask stupid questions of, and be treated nicely by. They absolutely do not pull star attitude with us, and I don't think people who dismiss this -- and us -- really understand that. My family apparently thinks it's just a cynical ploy, and that Steve and I are insane for falling for it, definitely me more than Steve because on the surface I'm harder-bit. So here I am feeling as if I'm a sulky disaffected teenager, hangin' out with my buds on the corner because my family is just so, like, they just don't get it, man! :D Thoughts? - -- Lori, just wastin' time.... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 16:16:31 GMT From: Loren Becker Subject: on female circumcision... /me grumbles about how it's been so long since i last posted that i forget how... (can you tell i've finally found my way to irc?) i don't think my post about pinochet actually went through or if it did, it didn't ever come back to me - i've had some server issues recently. but anyway. this was a topic we discussed a lot at human rights watch. they do a lot of advocacy and reporting on genital mutilation and stuff. > We are people Jen. We can have opinions that this practice is barbaric as > long as we don't grab a bunch of bazookas and go over there and try to stop > them doing it in their own country. i definitely agree that we have a right to be horrified by genital mutilation (or other) practices and i know that i certainly am, but i hope that we also make an effort to understand why these customs have lasted and what their purpose is. not that it really makes a difference in our opinions necessarily but i do think that our opinions are more deserving of respect if we come by them through education and information. we can make a better case against things when we understand what and why they are, since the people who it is most important to convince are those who believe wholeheartedly in them. someone, i forget who, justified intervention by saying that the women of these cultures are rejecting these practices and on the whole that is not true. as was mentioned before, it is the mothers and grandmothers who hold young women down while the "circumcision" is performed. while some women are certainly seeking to avoid mutilation of their daughters, it is still seen as a right of initiation by many women and as the proper way to keep a young woman pure and subservient. that said, i think those who do come seeking refuge should be granted it, as it is not direct intervention and we do have a responsibility to uphold human rights standards. > No, of course the child doesn't decide. This is one of the main arguments > against male circumcision. However, in my opinion, female and male > circumcision are not on the same level as mutilation goes. Female > circumcision is true mutilation, whereas the male variety is a lot closer > to the level of decorative piercing. they are definitely not the same thing. first, female circumcision is performed at a conscious age - where at eight days, a boy is unlikely to remember the experience for the rest of his life, at twelve years it's kind of hard to forget it. coming from a rather large, traditional jewish family, i have been to many brises of cousins and friends and it seems to me that the tears, which begin as soon as the diaper is removed and cease as soon as it is replaced, are more shed because of exposure than because of pain. i have never, and hope i never will, attended a female circumcision but i would imagine that the reactions are very different coming from a fully conscious 12-year-old girl, even if she does agree with the tradition. second, male circumcision has no long term effects on the man's ability to enjoy sexual contact (or any other long term effects, as far as i can tell). besides the psychological effects of female genital mutilation, however, it is also design to destroy the woman's ability to enjoy sexual intimacy. the theory is, according to the research i've read so far, that if a woman does not enjoy sex, she with stay faithful and obedient to her family first and then her husband and she will not stray and "dishonor" them. it is a very serious and effective manifestation of machista thought. taking all of that into account, i would hesitate to rely too heavily on a comparison between female and male circumcision practices. i think i've said more than my fair share on this topic and i'm sure that the purists amongst you would prefer that this topic, which has now strayed from fruvous content, die off. i would like to note on that subject that one of the things that i love about fruvous is that their music inspires thoughtful discussions on topics such as this one and one of the things i love about fruheads is that they can have intelligent, well thought out discussions about issues raised by the music we share. and i definitely prefer this kind of off-topic discussion to the flood of either/or posts that have dominated the ng lately. loren. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Am I the ear that listens or am I the melody? I am not the eye that sees: I'm the images." --Eduardo Galeano, from Dias y Noches del Amor y la Guerra ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 16:48:06 GMT From: "Schwan, Phil" Subject: Re: Stolen Moxy Art on the Web!?!? Oops...my fault. I apologize for not researching this before I spoke:) - -Phil ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 17:02:23 GMT From: "Schwan, Phil" Subject: Re: Stolen Moxy Art on the Web!?!? http://www.zeldman.com/toc.html The terrible, terrible tragedy of it all... and no reverse-linking either. :( - - Marty I just posted a message to his guestbook asking that he either site the source of the graphic or remove it. I encourage you all to do the same. - -Phil ------------------------------ Date: 9 Dec 1998 15:59:41 GMT From: Gruneberg Veronica J <6vjg@qlink.queensu.ca> Subject: Re: Nature Sound of NGs Hey, it was 19 degrees out when I woke up the other day. Then by the next day it was snowing. I've given up trying to understand. Still hating exams... :) Veronica - -- *************************************************************************** "Hey Mr. Santa Claus, | Veronica Gruneberg I believe in you because | Dept. of Biology last year all my parents got me | Queen's University was a trip to Missisagua!!" | Kingston, Ontario - Arrogant Worms *"It's cool in many ways to be Canadian..." Arrogant Worms* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:22:33 -0500 From: "KatieWow" Subject: Re: '98 Remembered the more i read this group, the luckier i feel to have had the baltimore show as my first. king of spain, GE+H, sahara, a cappella early mornin' rain, and off-mic gulf war song. only thing that was missing was authors :). ~~kate ------------------------------ Date: 9 Dec 1998 17:49:48 GMT From: kevin@mail.research-inc.com () Subject: Re: another Pointe-Claire review > Thoughts? I'm with ya' on this one. I've never before had an urge to travel just to see the same band again and again and again... the reason that I do isn't the music if I just wanted music, I'd listen to boots and cd's... it's the fact that I like the fans, the band, and the music. It was kind of bizarre when I was at Pt. Claire and realized that I was acquainted with at least 15 or 20 people It's just a guaranteed fun evening, and even when I've gone to faraway concerts alone, I've yet to not run into somebody who I already knew. My nonfrufriends are starting to understand though... the only thing that confuses me are the people who freak out when you mention something like 'i was talking with jian at this coffeehouse...'. I mean, they're just regular guys. no egos, no celebrity annoyances. they just happen to also make really good music. Kevin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 17:58:59 GMT From: "A.J. LoCicero" Subject: Re: Gulf War Song: It Still Applies FruWench wrote: > > BTW - I am hoping my post was read in a quiet, annotated tone of voice. I was > not intending it to be an attack, merely another point of view. Not > necessarily one I agree with, but one that had not yet been brought forward. > Yes AJ, we can all have opinions, I am simlpy trying to show one that may not > have advocates here to present it. In the interests of fairness. I understand. I never assumed that you were advocating that position. I'm glad you brought the point up, as you are right that it needed to be raised. I was simply responding to your point as you phrased it. I'm sorry if my answer seemed overly sarcastic. I didn't mean it that way. My fault. Fading into the shadows after fruwench, provoking speculation that something interesting must be going on in there. :D A.J. - -- Epitaph on a dead blues singer's gravestone: "I didn't wake up this morning . . ." _____ _ / ____(_) | | _ ___ ___ _ __ ___ | | | |/ __/ _ \ '__/ _ \ | |____| | (_| __/ | | (_) | \_____|_|\___\___|_| \___/ @wwnet.com ICQ#: 13117113 ------------------------------ Date: 9 Dec 1998 18:12:46 GMT From: fgardine@uoguelph.ca (F. Gardiner) Subject: Re: Stolen Moxy Art on the Web!?!? : I went and had a look. I also asked the guy where the astronaut came from. This was his response: i adapted the astronaut from public-domain clip art, which came from a service that is one of my site's sponsors. (their ad banner should be up on http://www.zeldman.com/steal.html or http://www.zeldman.com/gypsies.html) So there you go :) Fiona ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 19:09:31 GMT From: "Demetriou, Melanie" Subject: RE: on female circumcision... Warning: inflammatory post. Read at your own risk. On Wednesday, December 09, 1998 11:17 AM, Loren Becker [SMTP:loren@gwu.edu] wrote: > > We are people Jen. We can have opinions that this practice is barbaric as > > long as we don't grab a bunch of bazookas and go over there and try to stop > > them doing it in their own country. It was this line of thinking that led FDR to stay out of Germany for 5 years after he knew what was going on. > i definitely agree that we have a right to be horrified by genital mutilation (or > other) practices and i know that i certainly am, but i hope that we also make an > effort to understand why these customs have lasted and what their purpose is. not > that it really makes a difference in our opinions necessarily but i do think that our > opinions are more deserving of respect if we come by them through education and > information. we can make a better case against things when we understand what and why > they are, since the people who it is most important to convince are those who believe > wholeheartedly in them. I agree with the last half of this paragraph; education is the key to changing this "custom." But I have a question: If mutilation is customary, does that make it right? If it were customary in my family to beat a child, would that make it right? It's customary for the winning army to rape the women and burn the villages, but does that make it right? Anti-semitism was customary in Germany, but what Hitler did wasn't right! IMO, human rights are not tied to geographic location. > that said, i think those who do come seeking refuge should be granted it, as it is > not direct intervention and we do have a responsibility to uphold human rights > standards. Yes, but where? Just here? Or are we a global community? > > Female > > circumcision is true mutilation, whereas the male variety is a lot closer > > to the level of decorative piercing. > > they are definitely not the same thing. No, they're not the same. But male circumcision is far more than decorative piercing. > first, female circumcision is performed at a conscious age - where at eight days, a > boy is unlikely to remember the experience for the rest of his life, There is mounting evidence that this isn't true. > at twelve years > it's kind of hard to forget it. coming from a rather large, traditional jewish > family, i have been to many brises of cousins and friends and it seems to me that the > tears, which begin as soon as the diaper is removed and cease as soon as it is > replaced, are more shed because of exposure than because of pain. The documentaries I've seen and articles I've read contradict this. Pain sensors and brain activity monitors indicate that the boy feels incredible pain. And remembers it, albeit subconsciously. It is theorized that it sets up a preverbal distrust of the world. > i have never, and > hope i never will, attended a female circumcision but i would imagine that the > reactions are very different coming from a fully conscious 12-year-old girl, even if > she does agree with the tradition. Of course they're different, but I don't think that means we should forget the boy's trauma just because he can't verbalize it. > second, male circumcision has no long term effects on the man's ability to enjoy > sexual contact (or any other long term effects, as far as i can tell). Again, there is evidence that this isn't the case. And even if it were true, the bottom line is that circumcision was instituted for sanitary reasons that became religious reasons that are now just traditional or the social norm. There's a miniscule increase in likelihood of urinary tract infections in uncircumcised males, but again, that's because of improper washing and completely preventable. In Europe, almost no men are circumcised. Mostly just the Jews, for religious reasons. To me, this says something. > besides the > psychological effects of female genital mutilation, however, it is also design to > destroy the woman's ability to enjoy sexual intimacy. the theory is, according to the > research i've read so far, that if a woman does not enjoy sex, she with stay faithful > and obedient to her family first and then her husband and she will not stray and > "dishonor" them. it is a very serious and effective manifestation of machista > thought. It's more than not enjoying sex. Plenty of woman don't enjoy sex without being mutilated! It's actually painful. Sex, urination, any activity in the vulva just plain hurts. > i think i've said more than my fair share on this topic and i'm sure that the purists > amongst you would prefer that this topic, which has now strayed from fruvous content, And I jumped in unbidden without reading any of the previous posts on this topic. If I've been redundant or offensive, I apologize. This is one of those subjects that I cannot in good conscience remain silent about. To me, this is equivalent to genocide, enslavement, political imprisonment, and the like. It's not just wrong; it's abominable. I don't care if it's the custom, or if the women *think* they want it done. Of course they think that! They are products of their culture. Little girls are being mutilated... how can we say it's not our business? Just thinking about it makes me cry. What kind of a race are we, anyways? Melanie, passionate ------------------------------ End of alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V2 #107 ********************************************