From: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org (alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest) To: ammf-digest@smoe.org Subject: alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V1 #111 Reply-To: ammf@smoe.org Sender: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest Thursday, July 16 1998 Volume 01 : Number 111 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: greetings from Alberta! [Richard Butterworth Subject: Re: greetings from Alberta! Even longer and ramblier and offer-topic than the last one. Sorrier. Dot0926 wrote: > by the way, i really think this is nice, this political dicussion of sorts. i > really like that there are other socialy aware individuals with whom i can have > an interesting "conversation" with. i just hope i haven't offended anyone, that > is certainly not my intention. > Ditto to that. I've just worked out what a 103 fever is. Nasty. I originally thought you might be allergic to prime numbers or something. Anyway... > >I may be misreading Nora here, but it sounds like an absolutist position on > >freedom of expression that's being taken. There is a balance to be drawn here > >between freedom and security > > quite simply, i disagree. i don't believe that a falsefied system of security > via censorship is worth sacrificing freedom. i would rather live with the so > called evils of society, and learn how to deal with them myself, then be > "protected" from them ,and live in a state of blissful ignorence. > Neither do I believe that a *falsefied* system of security via censorship is worth sacrificing freedom. But neither do I believe that freedom of expression is a Good Thing in all circumstances. I just get uncomfortable when anyone puts themselves in an absolutist position on anything, be it something I agree with or something or don't. I believe freedom of expression is a Good Thing. But freedom to agressively express a belief that hetrosexual Caucasians are the pure master-race and everyone else should be exterminated? No, I don't want to live in a society where that gets expressed. If that is a system of security via censorship then so be it. > why is it that people always insist on relying on the exuse of "we don't live > in a utopia"? why do people resign themselves to the status quo? Not me. > if people > keep believing that because we don't live in a utopia, and are resigned to > "human nature" ( which i dont believe exists) , then no one will ever even > attempt to change things. Sorry, don't follow the logic here. It is precisely my belief that we don't live in utopia that makes me get off my backside and do something about it. I would have thought that someone who thought he/she was in utopia would be the sort of person happy with the status quo. We live in a potential utopia, yes, with angels and demons and love and hate and beauty and ugliness and lies and truth. And most of life is the wonderful, exciting, heartbreaking, infuriating, funny, stupid, human mess in the middle. A government (which as Vikka points out is just as much a heartbreaking, infuriating, funny, stupid, human mess as the rest of us) must reflect and work with that fact. (I'm desperately trying to work some Moxy content in here. No can't do it, I probably could work in the lyrics from Gulf War Song if I hadn't left the CD at home.) As for "human nature" not existing, well that's psychology and sociology down the pan. Sigh. I suppose I'll have to take another degree then. Going for a really crass generalisation most revolutionary rhetorics (and most revolutions) fail because they forget that the humans they try to make life better for are, well, human. I'm not trying to excuse nasty, irresponsible, offensive human behaviour, but any system of government does well to realise that its citizens have potential of being demons as well as angels. There's a quote in Captain Corelli's Mandolin that I like; `we should care for each other more than we care for ideas, or else we will finish up killing each other'. I'm really rambling now. Starfox wrote: > I wish we could make everyone see that it is the parent that is > responsible for the child until a certain age. Government should not > dictate what is good, ethical, or moral. That's society's job. Government is part of society and it shouldn't dictate anything in a democracy. wahrend@my-dejanews.com wrote: > Oh no... being drawn into a debate.. ahhhhh..... Aha! We have you in our political debate now. You cannot escape! Ahahahaha! > Somehow I find your logic flawed here... are you saying that because some > people lack restraint we should impose laws that stop everyone from randomly > puching people in the face. If we follow this logic to its extreme nobody > should be able to say anything because it might offend someone else. You can always extend a logic into an absurdity. (Logic fans will no doubt have heard of the reductio ad absurdum rule included in most logics that states just that, most of Lewis Carroll's nonsense is about applying reductio ad absurdum to sensible axioms to get ridiculous outcomes. Where was I? Oh yes...) You can take my tenet that I don't want to get randomly smacked in the face (or indeed smack anyone else in the face) and reduce it to an argument that no-one can express anything. You can also take the tenet that freedom of expression is absolute and reduce it to an argument for the right to smash peoples' faces in whenever you feel like it. Happiness lies in the middle, so does unhappiness, but that's the price of being human, not a superman. Who were we greeting in Alberta in the first place? Alright, alright, I'm shutting up. Pip pip Richard - ------------------------------------------------ Who knows what mystic thoughts may be whispering among the mossy groves of his crutty shins? (Spike Milligna -- the well known typing error.) - ------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 1998 07:30:45 GMT From: jenncyn@aol.com (JennCyn) Subject: Re: question for a knowledgable fruvous fan > Screw cdnow since it's Cannuck stuff check out a great Cdn music store on-line A&B > sound at http://www.absound.ca they've got all of Fruvous' stuff and if you're a yank take > advantage of our pathetic dollar! Shipping is reasonable too! I do that all the time ordering things from Nettwerk. My last order was $45 CDN, which the friendly folks at VISA translated into $30.92 US. What can I say... it helps! - - jenn ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 02:12:14 -0700 From: Andrea Subject: A begging Fruhead is not a pretty sight... But..I'm begging here ;) If some kind soul has transcribed the lyrics to 'I Will Hold On' could you please email them to me? They're not up on FDC yet (understandable, since it's a new song) and I need them. 'Why?' you ask? At the risk of sounding corny or idiotic (or both)...my boyfriend and I had a big fight a couple weeks ago and are barely speaking to one another. When I heard this song it reminded me of him, and the lyrics say what I'd like to say to him, and a hell of a lot better than I could. I need this to try to start getting things back together again :( Begging lots and looking pathetic, Drea ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 1998 10:50:50 GMT From: fruwench@aol.com (FruWench) Subject: This weekend Would it be worthwhile for me to hop a flight to Toronto this weekend? Or are the two shows too far away from Toronto to make it feasible? And if I did, are any FruHeads from Toronto going to the show who would be willing to barter (beg or borrow) for transportation? Just checking, my US Air E-Saver gave me an incredible price to Toronto for this weekend only. ladywench FruSpace - We came, we saw, we slept on the floor . . . ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 12:23:08 GMT From: dacilen@bu.edu (Vika Zafrin) Subject: Re: CDA (The sky is falling!) On Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:35:13 GMT, wahrend@my-dejanews.com wrote: >You don't leave a kid home with a loaded >gun in the house, do you? My point is, the world is a dangerous place, and >its really dangerous if you're stupid. You wouldn't let a kid drive your car >without teaching them, would you? Then why let them use your computer? I >can't stress education enough. Wow. Took the words right out of my mouth... before they ever formed in my mind! How'd you DO that? :) Yes, this is a "me too" post. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Vika [VEE-kah] Zafrin Patron Saint of Caffeine dacilen at bu dot edu aka Coffee Fru "You and your hula dance of culinary delight..." -ceecee ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 12:30:27 GMT From: dacilen@bu.edu (Vika Zafrin) Subject: Re: CDA (The sky is falling!) On 15 Jul 1998 19:31:57 GMT, dot0926@aol.com (Dot0926) wrote: > Consider this question from a consumer advocacy point of view. Why replace >thousands of years of parental guidance with technological solutions, such as >blocking software and the V-Chip? Hmm. I wouldn't say "replace". While I probably will never use this kind of blocking software (I'm still being idealistic and trying to think in terms of communicating with my child(ren) and treating them as human beings with a right to their own opinion, but a need for guidance), I wouldn't disapprove of using this kind of software. But yes, I would very much disapprove of using it *instead* of teaching and guiding the kids. In conjunction seems the best way to me, if you're going to use it at all. >"If you're worried abour your child's accidentally seeing content you >disapprove of, you shouldn't be -- there's little that one sees on the Net >accidentally. If you're worried about your child's choosing to see content you >disapprove, there is only one solution that works reliably (in my view), and >that is to teach your child to disapprove of the same things you do. This also >happens to be the solution most consistent with the values of an open society." >--Mike Godwin, father Mmm, yes. Very well said. The danger with that is the possibility of *really* disliking and taking it hard if your kid grows up a little and disagrees with you. That's always a sticky situation between family members, especially in a parent-child relationship. But ah well, I guess most people have to deal with this at some point or another. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Vika [VEE-kah] Zafrin Patron Saint of Caffeine dacilen at bu dot edu aka Coffee Fru "You and your hula dance of culinary delight..." -ceecee ------------------------------ End of alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V1 #111 ********************************************