From: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org (alloy-digest) To: alloy-digest@smoe.org Subject: alloy-digest V7 #172 Reply-To: alloy@smoe.org Sender: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "alloy-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. alloy-digest Monday, August 26 2002 Volume 07 : Number 172 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Re: Rant from Melissa, was Re: Alloy: RIAArrrrgggg! ["Daniel Swan" ] Alloy: Amid the vitriolic craziness... an introduction?! ["Andrea Curry" ] Re: Alloy: Okay, that's it. ["Daniel Swan" ] Re: Rant from Melissa, was Re: Alloy: RIAArrrrgggg! ["Daniel Swan" ] Alloy: Paul's redirect! [graham stuart ] Re: Rant from Melissa, was Re: Alloy: RIAArrrrgggg! [PRAEst76 ] Re: Rant from Melissa, was Re: Alloy: RIAArrrrgggg! [Elaine Linstruth ] Re: Alloy: Paul's redirect! ["Andrea Curry" ] Re: Rant from Melissa, was Re: Alloy: RIAArrrrgggg! ["Andrea Curry" Subject: Re: Re: Rant from Melissa, was Re: Alloy: RIAArrrrgggg! You've lost me, Sally. What racist stereotypes did Merujo invoke? ............................................................................. "And if you want to Swan, one to one... kid, we don't need a pond." -Prefab Sprout ............................................................................. > -----Original Message----- > From: "Sally Allan" > To: > Sent: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 03:52:16 +0100 > Subject: Re: Rant from Melissa, was Re: Alloy: RIAArrrrgggg! > > > Merujo, I don't take kindly to racist stereotypes, or to people who > criticise other countries without understanding what they are talking about. > I don't want to read about your nasty prejudices, and I can't believe that > having insulted so many of us you had the cheek to talk about how you "treat > people well". I understand that you were trying to make a point, but what a > shame you chose to expess it in such a hateful fashion. If you're a little > disappointed then I'm way ahead of you. > > Sally ______________________________________________________________________ Get Your Own Private, Free Email Account at http://www.dotcomemail.com Now With Over 1,500 Com, Net, and Org Domains to Choose From! ______________________________________________________________________ ****** Try the Ultimate Search Engine at http://www.torpedo.com ****** ------------------------------ Date: 25 Aug 2002 09:12:01 -0000 From: "Daniel Swan" Subject: Re: Alloy: Some final words to Alloy Melissa, I know you've been a longtime member of Ally, and your presence will be missed, however, I think your departure is premature. That being said, life is full of many challenges, some of which can bleed into "safe" places like this list. Yes, I feel you have been unfairly judged, but at the risk of being considered disrespectful, I feel you are cowardly and thin-skinned to depart over this. ............................................................................. "And if you want to Swan, one to one... kid, we don't need a pond." -Prefab Sprout ............................................................................. > -----Original Message----- > From: Merujo > To: alloy@smoe.org > Sent: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 23:35:36 -0400 > Subject: Alloy: Some final words to Alloy > > > Well, I've left before, and, missing this community, I've > come back. A couple of times I've left because I was > outspoken and had some nasty e-mails come my way, which > somewhat unsettled me. But this takes the cake. But now that > I've been branded a hateful racist with nasty prejudices > publicly by Sally and had some more colorfully worded > thoughts forwarded to me privately by some cowardly little > bastard or bastards unknown, I'm leaving for good. This > ain't good for my blood sugar, frankly, and I have to worry > about that now a hell of a lot more than I have to worry > about strangers judging me. > > I've been here in Alloy since virtually the beginning, and > I've made some wonderful friends here. I'll be in touch with > you all via e-mail, as always. You know where to find me. I > wish Alloy well. Just please remember that, if you're going > to make comments about someone's home country, they have the > right to challenge your thoughts without being branded > something really foul. Hyperbole, people. Hyperbole. It > means to exaggerate to make your point, for god's sake. > > And try to remember that, among the fans of Thomas Dolby, > you have not only people who think and live liberal > lifestyles, you also have people who live and think > conservatively. Sometimes, it seems that there isn't room > for both sides here, and more than once really good people > have been terribly alienated. And, unlike me, they were too > graceful to respond. > > You are welcome to take my thoughts any way you want to and > respond to them any way you want to. That's the wonderful > thing about freedom. But you dare to call me a racist (or > any of the other shitty things that were just hurled at me > in the last few minutes via private e-mail) and I don't have > to stick around and listen that crap. That's my right. > > So excuse me while I exercise my freedom to get the hell out > of here. > > Racist, my ass. > > - Melissa Ruth Jordan, not a racist, not a fascist, not > hanging around to be called more crap by strangers ______________________________________________________________________ Get Your Own Private, Free Email Account at http://www.dotcomemail.com Now With Over 1,500 Com, Net, and Org Domains to Choose From! ______________________________________________________________________ ****** Try the Ultimate Search Engine at http://www.torpedo.com ****** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 04:12:40 -0500 From: "Andrea Curry" Subject: Alloy: Amid the vitriolic craziness... an introduction?! Hope you haven't left yet, Melissa.. I always liked reading what you had to say. Can a lurker introduce herself at such a point? I've been following Alloy for about a month now, since I heard the voices call to me and say, "Go buy a Thomas Dolby CD, even though all you've heard of him is "She Blinded Me With Science" and some work with Ofra Haza." And I did (Retrospectacle), and was floored. It just immediately resonated with me. I wonder if that's how everyone finds their favorite artists... it's not genres or artists people like, but something unexplainable, where the music just matches the person. I haven't found many other artists whose music does that, and it's all over the board (Live, Presuntos Implicados, First Call, Nikka Costa). The sound waves = the person waves or something. I don't know. The day I bought the CD I visited my fiance at work, and ran in all excited, telling him about this CD that was in the process of changing my life, and his boss overheard (not hard- I think I was rather loud and annoying), and just happened to have the whole collection of CD's released in the states. So we borrowed, listened, then Shane and I went to CD World and bought up all the Dolbymusic we could find over the past two weekends. So of course I wanted to know more, and found Thomas's official homepage and also the Alloy list, and have been lurking ever since. Yeah... that's how I got here. And I have been amazed to listen to the conversations going on around me... it is interesting discussion about timely subjects, not just a typical boring fanlist. No wonder Mr. Dolby himself subscribes to this list. I would gather that he enjoys being around intelligent people. As for the small rant-roversy that has been going on, my two cents are that Melissa actually holds quite a middle-of-the-road position, neither liberal nor conservative. (Or maybe it's both.? But that is ok.) The parts that I assume Sally objected to, I saw as making direct comparisons with other countries' foibles, which every nation has. I didn't see merujo's comments as being racist, or setting America up above anywhere else. There was nothing saying, "All [insert ethnicity or nationality here] are [insert adjective here]" kind of thing. If I'm wrong, please feel free to comment. The spicy language went over my head, as I have coached teenage boys' hockey in the past. :) Don't know if there's a list policy on that one or anything, but I *can* see where that could be a bit offensive. But enough about that. I just wanted to say hi, express a tiny opinion, and hope that the list can continue having intelligent discourse about important things without jumping to conclusions too terribly quickly. List vitriol tastes bad in everyone's mouth... :< - -triliana. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Aug 2002 09:18:19 -0000 From: "Daniel Swan" Subject: Re: Alloy: Okay, that's it. How cowardly. If you disagree with Sally, have the balls to tell her so, and explain why, instead of running away and hiding. Goodness, I can't help but wonder how you and Melissa deal with day to day challenges without peeing yourselves. ............................................................................. "And if you want to Swan, one to one... kid, we don't need a pond." -Prefab Sprout ............................................................................. > -----Original Message----- > From: "o mega" > To: alloy@smoe.org > Sent: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 00:34:07 -0400 > Subject: Alloy: Okay, that's it. > > > I'll be unsubscribing from this list. Melissa has been unfairly treated and > > I do not wish to hear more of Sally's double standards. > > So long. > > --omega > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com ______________________________________________________________________ Get Your Own Private, Free Email Account at http://www.dotcomemail.com Now With Over 1,500 Com, Net, and Org Domains to Choose From! ______________________________________________________________________ ****** Try the Ultimate Search Engine at http://www.torpedo.com ****** ------------------------------ Date: 25 Aug 2002 09:34:20 -0000 From: "Daniel Swan" Subject: Re: Rant from Melissa, was Re: Alloy: RIAArrrrgggg! > -----Original Message----- > From: Merujo > To: alloy@smoe.org > Sent: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 19:38:28 -0400 > Subject: Rant from Melissa, was Re: Alloy: RIAArrrrgggg! > Hold on a second here. > > Why is it periodically okie dokie to bash America on Alloy? I didn't realize that certain topics were forbidden. I would venture to say that all topics are allowed, provided the discourse is civil and non-inflammatory. > I've never killed a foreigner. No, but as an American taxpayer, and a participant in democracy, you finance and empower others to do your killing for you. I've never killed a cow, however, as a carnivore, it would be disingenuous of me to suggest that I've never contributed to the death of any. > NEVER in my life in the 'States have I seen foreign > visitors treated like that by anyone manning a national tourist office. Although these individuals were rude, it may be worth asking yourself why they acted in this manner. > I was raised to treat people well, and I try to do that. That is a noble trait, however, in application, it likely only extends as far as your fellow Americans. ______________________________________________________________________ Get Your Own Private, Free Email Account at http://www.dotcomemail.com Now With Over 1,500 Com, Net, and Org Domains to Choose From! ______________________________________________________________________ ****** Try the Ultimate Search Engine at http://www.torpedo.com ****** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 04:39:11 -0600 From: "Keith Stansell" Subject: Alloy: move along - nothing to see here.... ok daniel, that's enough - no need to perpetuate the clash. I was a bit taken aback by the reply to my posting about RIAA, I was going to reply that not all of the music companies involved are American, Sony and BMG come to mind, but I got busy, wasn't sure of my facts, and moved on. lets all just move on from this topic. Melissa, stick around. We've been here since '96 or so, ya know you'd miss the occasional "spit your coffee on the keyboard" funny line from Crackers or deep discussions of the meaning of art and such from Robin. Oh yeah, and those occasional TMDR tidbits and insider info - the guy has more time on his hands now - you got to wonder what he'll be doing with it. Can't imagine you'd want to miss that. Take a nap, delete some messages without reading them, come back in a few. Take care, - -Keith ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 10:45:32 -0400 From: graham stuart Subject: Re: Alloy: move along - nothing to see here.... on 8/25/02 6:39 AM, Keith Stansell at Keith@Stansell.com wrote: > > ok daniel, that's enough - no need to perpetuate the clash. > > I was a bit taken aback by the reply to my posting about RIAA, I was going > to reply that not all of the music companies involved are American, Sony and > BMG come to mind, but I got busy, wasn't sure of my facts, and moved on. > > lets all just move on from this topic. > > Melissa, stick around. We've been here since '96 or so, ya know you'd miss > the occasional "spit your coffee on the keyboard" funny line from Crackers > or deep discussions of the meaning of art and such from Robin. Oh yeah, and > those occasional TMDR tidbits and insider info - the guy has more time on > his hands now - you got to wonder what he'll be doing with it. Can't > imagine you'd want to miss that. > > Take a nap, delete some messages without reading them, come back in a few. > > Take care, > -Keith I am a brand new member here, and this is a little shocking to me. there are lots of feelings on both sides and lots of hurt feelings but i'd like to offer up my 2 cents. I love the US. I don't often like their leaders or political actions, but we are talking about 300 million people. I have always found the individuals to be good. Having said that, the big critique of canadians often is, you need us then you critique us...well i think among frineds, and among families a little criticism is okay, provided there is trust , respect, and awareness of each other. this to me appears to be the root of many problems people have with "america" (not to be confused with 300 million individual americans) America often appears to act unilaterally. I frequently think that their decisions are often in the best intentions, but then there are also times where, and i know this will sound harsh, that the american leadership is so singleminded that they may be oblivious to nuances outside their own borders. Bush forgetting Canadians on numerous occasions (who i might add have been a significant ally, and trade partner with the us for an extended period of time-desite several american incursions aimed at making us new US territory) holding our flag upside down at the world series, having US womens hockey team walking over our flag in their dressing room floor, booing our national anthem at NBA playoffs. These are all superficial i understand and they do not change how much i enjoy the us and its people, having just returned froma holiday in boston. yet if these actions superficial as they are were to happen with the us on the receiving end, i can't imagine the hostility. let alone US fighter jets killing Canadian troops by accident oddly it barely registered in the american press. the point of all this is, a criticism of the RIAA, american taxation polices, american economic protectionism, and jingoism should be fair game as targets. they are open to criticism especially in the hands of artists, musicians etc, While this next line is not a directed barb at melissa (please don't take it that way!) in my country right wing politicians have devalued the arts in general , i have seen this most obviously in the decimation of the arts curriculum in elementary schools and the fallout in our high schools. to use a quote..."the conservative party know the cost of everything and the value of nothing" so we should be able to discuss these things and others but lets leave out personal attacks... i hope i have not offended anyone withthis. i have found melissa and others here to have been kind and supportive and i hope you will reconsider your desire to leave graham ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 18:46:34 +0100 From: "p.latham2" Subject: Alloy: ,MUSIC Hi everyone , I was very saddened to see the multitude of 'slagging off' emails going back & forth - I personally very rarely discuss politics with friends due to the upset it can cause - & thus I will be keeping out of this argument as well - except to add that we English are also often badly treated when abroad just because of our mindless lager louts --- now I drink lager (& lots of it), and travel all over Britain watching football (soccer) but we arent all lager louts & we arent all hooligans - but whoever made that comment re hooligans - dont worry Im not having a go because yes thousands of English thugs do exist - - I know some & have seen many in action but they also exist in other countries as well - not meaning that it makes it acceptable of course. Anyway I hope we can all go back to talking about music & wish id started this email instead by welcoming Andrea to the fold - Andrea we are usually far more friendlier & im so pleased to hear of your new found music tastes . For the record my current favourite Thomas tune is ' Cloudburst at shingle Street ' what about everyone else. Cheers. Paul. - Blackpool Football Club for ever. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 13:24:00 -0400 From: graham stuart Subject: Alloy: Paul's redirect! on 8/25/02 1:46 PM, p.latham2 at p.latham2@ntlworld.com wrote: > > Hi everyone , > > I was very saddened to see the multitude of 'slagging off' emails going back & > forth - I personally very rarely discuss politics with friends due to the > upset it can cause - & thus I will be keeping out of this argument as well - > except to add that we English are also often badly treated when abroad just > because of our mindless lager louts --- now I drink lager (& lots of it), and > travel all over Britain watching football (soccer) but we arent all lager > louts & we arent all hooligans - but whoever made that comment re hooligans - > dont worry Im not having a go because yes thousands of English thugs do exist > - I know some & have seen many in action but they also exist in other > countries as well - not meaning that it makes it acceptable of course. > > Anyway I hope we can all go back to talking about music & wish id started this > email instead by welcoming Andrea to the fold - Andrea we are usually far more > friendlier & im so pleased to hear of your new found music tastes . > > For the record my current favourite Thomas tune is ' Cloudburst at shingle > Street ' what about everyone else. > > Cheers. > > > Paul. - Blackpool Football Club for ever. hi Paul, tough decision i'm torn between weightless (amazing lyrics"in dolby's heart") and screen kiss (an all time fav...) anyone else? graham ps nice redirect Paul! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 18:55:32 +0100 From: PRAEst76 Subject: Re: Rant from Melissa, was Re: Alloy: RIAArrrrgggg! Merujo said... > William Steffey wrote: > > you've never killed a foreigner? > > My point in writing that was simply to be over the top in trying to > indicate that we aren't all the living dead evil freaks that most of > the world seems to think we are. I haven't killed anyone, for that > matter. It was just hyperbole, honest. You've left this list seemingly so there isn't a great deal in respinding to do this but I will, just to prove I'm paying at least some attention. The point of my comment was geared towards my anger and the fact that the US seems to want to sign up to the UN coart but be excempt from prosecution. I found this suspect. I'm not BASHING america, and i feel I'm not allowed to because of attitudes like yours. which I meet EVERY time i say anything against the US. It's like since 9/11 it's become WRONG to critcise the US online. Something that also bothers me (hey, can I bring up the subject of peopel wanting the name of LOTR part two: The Two Towers changed before ti's release because it's considered bad taste? Sorry IMO the US is the biggest, most powerful country in the world and as such should have a far thicker skin than it does) > But, if the world hates us, why do they buy into our culture? Blue > jeans, rap music, Marlboros, Hollywood, you name it. Because of the massive power behind advertising... the topic we've been discussing? american culture is everywhere. We seem to have 4th July celebrations here now because it's american and advertyisers seen Americana as cool. Having said that though the examples you cited aren't really common here, celt maybe Rap music and only in England. I don't know anyone who even likes rap music in Ireland though I'm sure there are many. > Sorry. I'm ranting again. And I promise that I will try to proofread > my rants better next time. (Like finishing my sentences, which I > didn't in the third paragraph - sorry.) I'd be more impressed if you didn't throw a hissy fit over it. (See my comment above about americans and their thin skins) - -- PRAEst76 http://www.cancellation.freeserve.co.uk/praest76/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 19:10:21 +0100 From: PRAEst76 Subject: Re: Re: Rant from Melissa, was Re: Alloy: RIAArrrrgggg! Daniel Swan said... > You've lost me, Sally. What racist stereotypes did Merujo invoke? I though I missed it myself but I re-read her mail and can't find it. I'm annoyed that people on this list are throwing tantrums. This list is pre-school television compaired to some of the lists I'm on that don't have people unsubscribing when the conversation gets a bit heated. I'm kinda dissapointed. I guess we filter the true humanity on this list so everyone can all feel safe and warm. - -- PRAEst76 http://www.cancellation.freeserve.co.uk/praest76/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 19:20:16 +0100 From: PRAEst76 Subject: Re: Alloy: move along - nothing to see here.... Keith Stansell said... > ok daniel, that's enough - no need to perpetuate the clash. Er... I don't like harsh feelings or big arguments but Danile has done nothing wrong and probably the worst thing to do is ignore these issues. > I was a bit taken aback by the reply to my posting about RIAA, I was > going to reply that not all of the music companies involved are > American, Sony and BMG come to mind, but I got busy, wasn't sure of > my facts, and moved on. > lets all just move on from this topic. But what if it comes back? Best thing to do is agree to differ. Frank;ly I'm bored off it but may come back to it if it comes up. If people want to kick me and other off the list to save any argu,ment that'll be fine with me. > Melissa, stick around. We've been here since '96 or so, ya know > you'd miss the occasional "spit your coffee on the keyboard" funny > line from Crackers or deep discussions of the meaning of art and such > from Robin. Oh yeah, and those occasional TMDR tidbits and insider > info - the guy has more time on his hands now - you got to wonder > what he'll be doing with it. Can't imagine you'd want to miss that. That's all well and good but the RIAA thing came up because it's a MAJOR issue. The music biz is evolving seriously, you can ignore it for the sake of wanting a quiet life and a return to the 'good old days' but don't expect everyone to agree with you. I feel Melissa overreacted to a large degree but I DID make a very generalised statement. It's not surprising she got defensive. I just disagree with ignoring hot subjects because some people get flustered. Like you say, you take a breather. Count to ten, just don't ignore the issues. - -- PRAEst76 http://www.cancellation.freeserve.co.uk/praest76/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 15:17:55 -0500 From: William Steffey Subject: Alloy: sensitivity Hello Alloy. I just got back from band practice today, and noticed that everyone was being a little extra sensitive... protective... defensive. Something's in the air, I say. I think the topic of "how to act naturally without stepping on the toes of others" is a large topic in Alloy and beyond right now. Over the past few days I could see I upset people in small ways here and there. When that happens, I'm always pressed to answer the "am I some horrible monster?" question. I take time to trace back through words and actions to see exactly what happened. The last thing I want to do is hurt feelings, and I'll be the first to apologize if I find I have. In many of the cases, I saw that my statements had been taken quite a distance out of context by the person who was offended by them. My girlfriend has been getting over a bad stomach flu the past few days. She asked "do you think it's okay if I eat peanut butter, or is that too hard to digest?" I said "I think you're fine... you should be able to eat whatever you want by now." She got really mad at me and said "You're not inside me- you don't know how I feel!" A lighter example of this was at a birthday party for my friend who was reluctantly turning 30. Toward the end of the evening, I said "I have to go." He looked at me cautiously and said "really? you think I'm old?" It's in the air, I say. Everybody's extra sensitive right now. Don't know why, that's just what I've noticed. - -W ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 13:57:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Elaine Linstruth Subject: Re: Rant from Melissa, was Re: Alloy: RIAArrrrgggg! I'm not going to directly respond to each silly post over the last 24 hours, since 100% of the posts stem from an appalling lack of reading comprehension. I will, however, comment on the post which started it all: >> I trhink that's just America... wanting to be able to do whatever they >> like and be excempt from prosecution like everyone else because they >> are American and as such 'the good guys'. I believe Melissa's original post wondered aloud why this kind of comment goes largely unchallenged around here. Indeed, this one did, except for her. It's certainly not the first time this subject has come up (for those of you who have not been here for long.) I mean, I know I rarely (if ever) see anyone say anything resembling the kind of America-bashing over the last year here, along the lines of, say,.. oh, oops. Better not give egregious over-the-top examples in jest and satire, of what I have not said in stereotypical fashion making fun of some other country, purely for discussion purposes. Wouldn't want anybody to be able to "quote" me. Well, I don't know, maybe Crackers would like being called a hoser. Then he could call me a dirty rotten American and write a song about our intense xenophobia. Oh dear now I'm in dutch. Then it was followed up with: > The point of my comment was geared towards my anger and the fact that > the US seems to want to sign up to the UN coart but be excempt from > prosecution. I found this suspect. I'm not BASHING america, and i > feel I'm not allowed to because of attitudes like yours. Along with a "well I was very general, and I can see why she overreacted in terrible fashion" to paraphrase. That's the third slap. Enough already, we know how you really feel. No one here will ever say anyone can't bash anything they want. Just don't expect those of us who disagree to keep quiet. We might, but we might not. I bite my tongue all the time in here. I recall once saying I didn't like Jewel and having some guy blast me a new one just for voicing that opinion. It comes with the territory. [As a side note, not all of us here in America wants to sign up for this U.N. court, or anything else U.N. related. Contrary to what some of you may have been told, we don't "want half of the deal," we don't want only the so-called benefits without any responsibility; some of us would just as soon let it exist on its own if that's what's going to happen, and leave us the hell alone, as we have our own problems to deal with. Not to mention our own sovereignty as a nation along with our willingness to stand up and fight for it when necessary, not asking the U.N. or the E.U. or anyone else to fight the battle for us. So how about laying off telling "us" what "we" want and what "we" think, fair enough?] I speak entirely for myself. Other people here might think the U.N./E.U. quagmire is the best thing since sliced bread. LOADS better than the already-broken proven catastrophe that is the American government bureaucracy boondoggle. So, in conclusion, once every six months or so, the list is reminded that politics has to be a two-way discourse or it becomes a minefield of hurt feelings and misunderstandings. Elaine ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 01:55:03 +0100 From: "Sally Allan" Subject: Re: Rant from Melissa, was Re: Alloy: RIAArrrrgggg! Alloy people, I hope very much that this email can put an end to the fighting; I didn't want to ignore people's questions but I'm bored of this now and I suspect I'm not the only one. For the sake of everyone on this list, please send any further questions/hate mail to me personally so that this list can return to discussing Thomas Dolby. My favourite song is Screen Kiss because the music is particularly beautiful and I like the contrasting images that tell us so much in so few words: "She used to drink in the hills/Only now she drinks in the valleys" suggests both the decline of her happiness and how her addiction progressed: she used to drink in the good times, but now she drinks when she is down. Can everyone please say a little about WHY a song is their favourite? On the Melissa thing: for those people who asked me questions or made comments, the response is below. If you are not interested, please feel free to stop reading now. I can empathise.... > I'm not going to directly respond to each silly post over the last 24 > hours, since 100% of the posts stem from an appalling lack of reading > comprehension. Elaine appears to think that 10 or so people are all too stupid to understand an email. For her, and for the others who have asked what I meant, let me make it clear. I don't understand why I am thought to have "double standards", but I'm guessing it is because I defended Europeans but not Americans. I did that because I felt that Americans on the list had already made their case, and because I don't believe that they needed an English girl to do that for them. I considered Merujo/Melissa's post racist because it used offensive national stereotypes and the language of racism, i.e. unpleasant, false and sweeping generalisations about other ethnic groups. Melissa thought it was funny to call British people football hooligans, and the entire French nation racist. Tellingly, when I applied the latter description to her she suddenly didn't think it was so funny after all. I am well aware that Melissa presented her post as an ironic comment on national stereotypes (thus her later reference to Swift's "A Modest Proposal"). However, her own description of that post as "hyperbole" and "exaggeration" aligns with my view that what she posted did not read convincingly as satire, but instead read as thinly-veiled hostility; hyperbole is an exaggeration of the TRUTH as you perceive it. Without context and cues it is often hard to tell irony from hyperbole; if a complete stranger writes that he thinks Tony Blair is the wisest man in England you need more information to know whether this is a hyperbolic statement of approval or an ironic statement of disapproval. Since I cannot hear Melissa's voice and I don't know her personally I can judge her statements only by how they make me feel and how I perceive her intention in producing that feeling. They made me angry and a little hurt. My own feeling (and please note, I use "own" in deliberate emphasis) is that people who say racist things "as a joke" are usually cowards who are unable or unwilling to speak the truth about what they feel. They call people horrible names and say "oh, he knows I don't mean it...she knows it's just a joke...they don't mind". To give a real life example, someone once left a message on my husband's car suggesting that he fuck off back to the country he came from. I suspect that like Melissa, that person thought they were being funny. However, my husband didn't know if it was a joke or serious, and he found it pretty upsetting. At heart, racism is really a way of putting people down and upsetting them, and I think Melissa's post was intentionally provocative - she felt people had "bashed America" so she responded in kind, but in order to maintain the pretence of being on the moral high ground she claimed she was "just making a point". I think she made her point in an offensive way, and I don't believe that it was as much of a joke as she pretends - I see it as conscious aggression. According to Melissa she has already offended someone else on Alloy, and been upset when they responded angrily. I find it hard to believe that she thought we would all roll around laughing this time - and if she did, boy, has she failed to learn from experience. If someone had replied to her by making sick jokes about Jews in gas chambers, or black people being hung, or Americans dying in the World Trade Centre would that really be OK with everyone here? And even if it was, how could anyone possibly know in advance how everyone subscribing to Alloy would feel? Elaine, you say to PRAEst76 that you know how he *really* feels. That's exactly what I felt about Melissa's post - that despite her denials, it was how she really feels about foreign people and I'd rather she had the courage to say so. Similarly, I think your apparent condescension in suggesting that 10 people here are all too stupid to read with comprehension ( and, by implication, much less intelligent than you) is *really* an expression of your dislike for us badly disguised as a comment on our posts. If you don't like us, why not talk about the real reason why? Why not just say: "some of you have said things about Americans and America that hurt my feelings and I don't accept that they are true. I think they are just prejudice, and I'd like you to stop and/or I'd like to talk about it"? You are right that on this list (and any other) biting your tongue often comes with the territory. Sometimes I've been hugely offended by the Americans on this list, but I could see that they didn't *mean* to do that so I let it go. With Melissa I felt it was deliberate, and in a moment of great anger I posted how I felt instead of biting it back. I'll say it again so no-one misses it: I hope very much that this email can put an end to this; I didn't want to ignore people's questions but I'm bored of this now and I suspect I'm not the only one. For the sake of everyone on this list, please send any further questions/hate mail to me personally so that this list can return to discussing Thomas Dolby. Sally ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 18:46:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Elaine Linstruth Subject: Re: Rant from Melissa, was Re: Alloy: RIAArrrrgggg! > I considered Merujo/Melissa's post racist because it used offensive national > stereotypes and the language of racism, i.e. unpleasant, false and sweeping > generalisations about other ethnic groups. Melissa thought it was funny to > call British people football hooligans, and the entire French nation racist. No. She indicated that as an example of something which she would not tolerate were she British. > Elaine appears to think that 10 or so people are all too stupid to > understand an email. For her, and for the others who have asked what I > meant, let me make it clear. So keep fanning these flames in the spirit of 'putting it all behind us.' ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 22:57:23 -0500 From: "Andrea Curry" Subject: Re: Alloy: ,MUSIC Thanks, Paul, for the welcome! I'll happily talk about music... politics get so boring sometimes. Everyone's right about some things and everyone's wrong about others, so continued talk is merely circular and goes nowhere quickly... My current favorite Thomas tune? I have to pick one??? Airwaves for the memories of a still-awake 7:30 am, a sleep-deprived euphoria, driving home with the windows down, actually feeling the dampness of the wind... N.E.O. and Moonbase for passive listening at work (and N.E.O. on repeat for... well... other things... ;> ) The Flat Earth for singing loudly in the car on the evening commute. - -triliana. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 23:02:55 -0500 From: "Andrea Curry" Subject: Re: Alloy: Paul's redirect! weightless reminds me... Shane is talking about getting another kittycat sometime in the near future. When I'm ready, we have talked about naming it Dolby if it's a boy, or Lizzie if it's a girl. Weightless is one of *his* favorite songs... obviously. ok i stop posting for tonight. :> tril. On Sun, 25 Aug 2002 13:24:00 -0400 ya wrote: > hi Paul, > > tough decision i'm torn between weightless (amazing lyrics"in dolby's > heart") and screen kiss (an all time fav...) anyone else? > > graham > > ps nice redirect Paul! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 23:28:05 -0500 From: "Andrea Curry" Subject: Re: Rant from Melissa, was Re: Alloy: RIAArrrrgggg! Ack.. if you get a similar message to this I am terribly sorry... my email logged me out. Silly webmail! Screen kiss is one of my alltime favorites, Sally. I like your interpretation of those lyrics. I was thinking something more prosaic, basically that she had moved from the hills of England to the valleys of California, but that she was still drinking her problems away. Nothing has changed, except location. Echoes of "Leipzig" : Every place is just the same, isn't it? My favorite lines are the ending ones, "Suicide in the hills above old Hollywood is never gonna change the world/Any more than the invention of the six-gun/Any more than the discovery of radium/Or california tipping in the ocean." All of a sudden everything is turned upside down and looked at from a different angle. Such a song... so full of emotion. For me, it is about love, intrigue and jealousy, all those exciting Hollywood things that complicate real people's lives and sometimes rip them apart. - -tril. On Mon, 26 Aug 2002 01:55:03 +0100 "Sally Allan" wrote: > > Alloy people, I hope very much that this email can put an end to the > fighting; I didn't want to ignore people's questions but I'm bored of > this > now and I suspect I'm not the only one. For the sake of everyone on > this > list, please send any further questions/hate mail to me personally so > that > this list can return to discussing Thomas Dolby. > > My favourite song is Screen Kiss because the music is particularly > beautiful > and I like the contrasting images that tell us so much in so few > words: "She > used to drink in the hills/Only now she drinks in the valleys" > suggests both > the decline of her happiness and how her addiction progressed: she > used to > drink in the good times, but now she drinks when she is down. Can > everyone > please say a little about WHY a song is their favourite? ------------------------------ End of alloy-digest V7 #172 ***************************