From: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org (alloy-digest) To: alloy-digest@smoe.org Subject: alloy-digest V7 #171 Reply-To: alloy@smoe.org Sender: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "alloy-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. alloy-digest Sunday, August 25 2002 Volume 07 : Number 171 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Alloy: To Mellissa J. ["Paulo" ] Rant from Melissa, was Re: Alloy: RIAArrrrgggg! [Merujo ] Re: Rant from Melissa, was Re: Alloy: RIAArrrrgggg! ["Sally Allan" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 07:32:06 -0300 From: "Paulo" Subject: Alloy: To Mellissa J. Hello! Please, can you post the web site of the internet vinyl shop you've mentioned below through Alloy ? There are some items I am also looking for and it's been difficult to find them. Thanks Paulo Graham I know you've written a couple of times, and I don't know if anyone has responded to you privately. You probably haven't received anything publicly because there is a measure of discomfort with your request. Thomas Dolby is a participant in this community, and he's not hip to the "illegal copying" you're referring to. Hence, I imagine, the silence. However, if you e-mail me, I can give you the contact info for an awesome Internet-based vinyl shop that stocks virtually all the stuff you mentioned, save Live Wireless, which is available on eBay quite often. Hope that helps! - - Melissa J. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 19:38:28 -0400 From: Merujo Subject: Rant from Melissa, was Re: Alloy: RIAArrrrgggg! PRAEst76 wrote: > Keith Stansell said... > > > Is it just me, or has the RIAA just gone crazy lately. Now they want > > to hack peoples computers legally? > > I trhink that's just America... wanting to be able to do whatever they > like and be excempt from prosecution like everyone else because they > are American and as such 'the good guys'. Hold on a second here. Why is it periodically okie dokie to bash America on Alloy? I don't think we're the "good guys," necessarily, but I really hate reading pretty cavalier bashing stuff out here, just tossed off like it won't bug anyone. When I read this yesterday, this bugged me, but I wanted to think about it before I responded. Are you saying that America, *like virtually every other country in the world*, wants to do what it likes and not be prosecuted, *like virtually every other country in the world*, or are you saying that we have to be held to some higher standard than virtually everybody else? I'd like to know what you're saying clearly before I say much more. I will say this, though, right now. America can be a pretty screwed up place. Our current presidential administration, despite being the "party of less government", is using 9/11 to extend government controls much further than the previous "party of more government" and that freaks me out. I've said it before out here (and I know some of you are damn tired of hearing from me) but I will say it again: the United States is a nation of contradictions, and that's partly because we have a system that allows everybody to yell their opinions out in the open. We have a lot of freedoms, but we have a lot of prudishness (me included in the prude bunch, honestly.) We run the gamut of ethnicity, education, race, income level... I think we do damn well for an inconsistent heaped up pile of immigrants with less than enough money to properly educate everyone and more money than we should have to spend spent on defense because lots of people hate us. I cannot tell you how I feel when I, as someone with a goddamn huge amount of experience outside of this country, Are we The Good Guys? We're certainly SOME some of the good guys. I see a lot of other good guys out in this world, too, and they have problems. Let's share the bashing wealth. Norway kills whales - boycott their products! Britain has violent football hooligans - how is it that such a genteel country can't calm down its youth enough to sit through a sports match without someone beating the shit out of someone else? The French are racist toward their immigrant communities - don't spend your tourist Euros there!!! I'm just trying to make a point here, but it seems so easy to slap the United States. And, truthfully, I hate it when I see it here. It turns an interesting conversation into something that totally turns me off. I've never killed a foreigner. I've never thought of myself as better than anyone else. Just different. I vote with my conscience to choose the leaders I think will best lead my community and my country. I did not vote for George Bush because I felt that his record as a business leader was appalling, and I didn't think that boded well for his abilities in the White House. I am very nervous about what may happen with Iraq in the coming months. I think whatever may happen will be ill-timed and ill-advised. (One of my best friends from college is one of Washington's leading experts on Iraq, and he has the crap scared out of me, frankly.) I don't know if I've ever told the story about my trip to Wales back in 1987, when I was a student in London. My roommate and I, both Americans, when to stay at a B&B in a tiny village at the tip of Rhossili (Worm's Head.) We were having a lovely weekend, and, on our last day, we went walking to the National Trust visitor's center... where the info clerk told us to "Fuck off!" when he found out we were Americans. He told us we weren't wanted there. And he and his buddies had a nice laugh about it as we walked off, totally shocked. NEVER in my life in the 'States have I seen foreign visitors treated like that by anyone manning a national tourist office. I'll never visit Wales again, thank you very much. I've observed so much about my country that I love. And I've observed so much about my country that I dislike. But it is my home, and it has provided shelter to so many people who were treated like dirt in their home countries. It's amazing that the United States continues to function considering the continuously, furiously bubbling place it is. America is not a swill-filled cesspool. We don't suck 24/7. And a lot of us are nice people. I was raised to treat people well, and I try to do that. I believe most Americans are like that. Think we think we're exempt from punishment in this world? Hardly. And, if you think that there isn't dissent in America, you're wrong. There's a buttload of it, my friends. I'm done ranting. I'm sorry. It's becoming a semi-annual event. But I'm finally just going to say it. I'm really surprised that the casual bashing of America here only seems to bother Elaine and Julie and me. A little disappointed by that, Melissa - -- Melissa R. Jordan Hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies.  The Shawshank Redemption ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 19:04:02 -0500 From: William Steffey Subject: Re: Rant from Melissa, was Re: Alloy: RIAArrrrgggg! you've never killed a foreigner? - -WS Merujo wrote: >Hold on a second here. > >Why is it periodically okie dokie to bash America on Alloy? I don't think >we're the "good guys," necessarily, but I really >hate reading pretty cavalier bashing stuff out here, just tossed off like >it won't bug anyone. When I read this yesterday, this >bugged me, but I wanted to think about it before I responded. Are you >saying that America, *like virtually every other country >in the world*, wants to do what it likes and not be prosecuted, *like >virtually every other country in the world*, or are you saying that we have >to be held to some higher standard than virtually everybody else? I'd like >to know what you're saying clearly before I say much more. > >I will say this, though, right now. America can be a pretty screwed up >place. > >Our current presidential administration, despite being the "party of less >government", is using 9/11 to extend government controls much further than >the previous "party of more government" and that freaks me out. I've said >it before out here (and I know some of you are damn tired of hearing from >me) but I will say it again: the United States is a nation of >contradictions, and that's partly because we have a system that allows >everybody to yell their opinions out in the open. We have a lot of >freedoms, but we have a lot of prudishness (me included in the prude bunch, >honestly.) We run the gamut of ethnicity, education, race, income level... >I think we do damn well for an inconsistent heaped up pile of immigrants >with less than enough money to properly educate everyone and more money >than we should have to spend spent on defense because lots of people hate >us. I cannot tell you how I feel when I, as someone with a goddamn huge >amount of experience outside of this country, > >Are we The Good Guys? We're certainly SOME some of the good guys. I see a >lot of other good guys out in this world, too, and they have problems. >Let's share the bashing wealth. Norway kills whales - boycott their >products! Britain has violent >football hooligans - how is it that such a genteel country can't calm down >its youth enough to sit through a sports match without someone beating the >shit out of someone else? The French are racist toward their immigrant >communities - don't spend >your tourist Euros there!!! > >I'm just trying to make a point here, but it seems so easy to slap the >United States. And, truthfully, I hate it when I see it here. It turns an >interesting conversation into something that totally turns me off. > >I've never killed a foreigner. I've never thought of myself as better than >anyone else. Just different. I vote with my conscience to choose the >leaders I think will best lead my community and my country. I did not vote >for George Bush because I felt that his record as a business leader was >appalling, and I didn't think that boded well for his abilities in the >White House. I am very nervous about what may happen with Iraq in the >coming months. I think whatever may happen will be ill-timed and >ill-advised. (One of my best friends from college is one of Washington's >leading experts on Iraq, and he has the crap scared out of me, frankly.) I >don't know if I've ever told the story about my trip to Wales back in 1987, >when I was a student in London. My roommate and I, both Americans, when to >stay at a B&B in a tiny village at the tip of Rhossili (Worm's Head.) We >were having a lovely weekend, and, on our last day, we went walking to the >National Trust visitor's center... where the info clerk told us to "Fuck >off!" when he found out we were Americans. He told us we weren't wanted >there. And he and his buddies had a nice laugh about it as we walked off, >totally shocked. NEVER in my life in the 'States have I seen foreign >visitors treated like that by anyone manning a national tourist office. >I'll never visit Wales again, thank you very much. > >I've observed so much about my country that I love. And I've observed so >much about my country that I dislike. But it is my home, and it has >provided shelter to so many people who were treated like dirt in their home >countries. It's amazing that the United States continues to function >considering the continuously, furiously bubbling place it is. > >America is not a swill-filled cesspool. We don't suck 24/7. And a lot of us >are nice people. I was raised to treat people well, and I try to do that. I >believe most Americans are like that. Think we think we're exempt from >punishment in this world? > >Hardly. > >And, if you think that there isn't dissent in America, you're wrong. >There's a buttload of it, my friends. > >I'm done ranting. I'm sorry. It's becoming a semi-annual event. But I'm >finally just going to say it. I'm really surprised that the casual bashing >of America here only seems to bother Elaine and Julie and me. > >A little disappointed by that, > >Melissa > >-- >Melissa R. Jordan > >Hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. >And no good thing ever dies.  The Shawshank Redemption ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 20:14:05 -0400 From: Merujo Subject: Re: Rant from Melissa, was Re: Alloy: RIAArrrrgggg! William Steffey wrote: > you've never killed a foreigner? My point in writing that was simply to be over the top in trying to indicate that we aren't all the living dead evil freaks that most of the world seems to think we are. I haven't killed anyone, for that matter. It was just hyperbole, honest. But, if the world hates us, why do they buy into our culture? Blue jeans, rap music, Marlboros, Hollywood, you name it. Sorry. I'm ranting again. And I promise that I will try to proofread my rants better next time. (Like finishing my sentences, which I didn't in the third paragraph - sorry.) - -- Melissa R. Jordan Hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies.  The Shawshank Redemption ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 21:35:03 EDT From: CJMark@aol.com Subject: Re: Rant from Melissa, was Re: Alloy: RIAArrrrgggg! Melissa.. Your rant was well stated.. and thank you very much for putting into words some of the things that I often think but rarely bother saying because I tend to think that most people that spout off ridiculous generalizations are basically idiots and I prefer not to waste my time dealing with them. I have more important things to do with my short life. I have also lived for a few years outside the states.. and agree that although it is far from perfect.. normal life here offers so much opportunity compared to anywhere else on earth that I have returned and will be hard pressed to leave it again for an extended stay.. (Although those Brazilian beaches are calling loudly!! ) So.. I won't say more.. but thanks again! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 03:52:16 +0100 From: "Sally Allan" Subject: Re: Rant from Melissa, was Re: Alloy: RIAArrrrgggg! Merujo, I don't take kindly to racist stereotypes, or to people who criticise other countries without understanding what they are talking about. I don't want to read about your nasty prejudices, and I can't believe that having insulted so many of us you had the cheek to talk about how you "treat people well". I understand that you were trying to make a point, but what a shame you chose to expess it in such a hateful fashion. If you're a little disappointed then I'm way ahead of you. Sally ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 23:01:01 -0400 From: Merujo Subject: Re: Rant from Melissa, was Re: Alloy: RIAArrrrgggg! Huh? How do you think I feel about hearing that Americans want to do whatever we want and be exempt from prosecution because we're the good guys. You totally missed my point. I made exaggerated comments to demonstrate how ridiculous *all* stereotypes are. Thomas Swift didn't want people to actually eat babies, you know. You have no idea how horribly, horribly wrong you are about me. You want to talk about prejudice? Come talk to me about how people treat me each and every day, based upon my appearance. I argue against prejudice and get upset about national stereotyping and crap like that because I am a victim of incredibly vicious prejudice and cruetly all the friggin' time. You have no idea. - - Melissa Jordan Sally Allan wrote: > Merujo, I don't take kindly to racist stereotypes, or to people who > criticise other countries without understanding what they are talking about. > I don't want to read about your nasty prejudices, and I can't believe that > having insulted so many of us you had the cheek to talk about how you "treat > people well". I understand that you were trying to make a point, but what a > shame you chose to expess it in such a hateful fashion. If you're a little > disappointed then I'm way ahead of you. > > Sally - -- Melissa R. Jordan Hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies.  The Shawshank Redemption ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 23:03:57 -0400 From: Merujo Subject: Re: Rant from Melissa, was Re: Alloy: RIAArrrrgggg! P.S. Hateful? WTF? Sally Allan wrote: > Merujo, I don't take kindly to racist stereotypes, or to people who > criticise other countries without understanding what they are talking about. > I don't want to read about your nasty prejudices, and I can't believe that > having insulted so many of us you had the cheek to talk about how you "treat > people well". I understand that you were trying to make a point, but what a > shame you chose to expess it in such a hateful fashion. If you're a little > disappointed then I'm way ahead of you. > > Sally - -- Melissa R. Jordan Hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies.  The Shawshank Redemption ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 23:35:36 -0400 From: Merujo Subject: Alloy: Some final words to Alloy Well, I've left before, and, missing this community, I've come back. A couple of times I've left because I was outspoken and had some nasty e-mails come my way, which somewhat unsettled me. But this takes the cake. But now that I've been branded a hateful racist with nasty prejudices publicly by Sally and had some more colorfully worded thoughts forwarded to me privately by some cowardly little bastard or bastards unknown, I'm leaving for good. This ain't good for my blood sugar, frankly, and I have to worry about that now a hell of a lot more than I have to worry about strangers judging me. I've been here in Alloy since virtually the beginning, and I've made some wonderful friends here. I'll be in touch with you all via e-mail, as always. You know where to find me. I wish Alloy well. Just please remember that, if you're going to make comments about someone's home country, they have the right to challenge your thoughts without being branded something really foul. Hyperbole, people. Hyperbole. It means to exaggerate to make your point, for god's sake. And try to remember that, among the fans of Thomas Dolby, you have not only people who think and live liberal lifestyles, you also have people who live and think conservatively. Sometimes, it seems that there isn't room for both sides here, and more than once really good people have been terribly alienated. And, unlike me, they were too graceful to respond. You are welcome to take my thoughts any way you want to and respond to them any way you want to. That's the wonderful thing about freedom. But you dare to call me a racist (or any of the other shitty things that were just hurled at me in the last few minutes via private e-mail) and I don't have to stick around and listen that crap. That's my right. So excuse me while I exercise my freedom to get the hell out of here. Racist, my ass. - - Melissa Ruth Jordan, not a racist, not a fascist, not hanging around to be called more crap by strangers ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 05:25:15 +0100 From: "Sally Allan" Subject: Re: Rant from Melissa, was Re: Alloy: RIAArrrrgggg! > You totally > missed my point. I made exaggerated comments to demonstrate how ridiculous *all* > stereotypes are. Thomas Swift didn't want people to actually eat babies, you > know. As I said in my post, I understood your point but consider it unacceptable to phrase it in the way you did. If you use the language of a racist, don't expect me to shrug and say "oh, it's just to make a point, so that's fine." You could use that excuse to say any nasty thing you wanted. > You have no idea how horribly, horribly wrong you are about me. > I am a victim of incredibly vicious > prejudice and cruetly all the friggin' time. You have no idea. I would expect greater sensitivity then, and less swearing and aggression. You were deliberately provocative and you don't like the response, but it is entirely the result of your own actions. If you provoke people, they react. If you are really such a victim, why emulate the actions of the people who hurt you? You should know better. Sally ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 00:34:07 -0400 From: "o mega" Subject: Alloy: Okay, that's it. I'll be unsubscribing from this list. Melissa has been unfairly treated and I do not wish to hear more of Sally's double standards. So long. - --omega _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of alloy-digest V7 #171 ***************************