From: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org (alloy-digest) To: alloy-digest@smoe.org Subject: alloy-digest V6 #246 Reply-To: alloy@smoe.org Sender: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "alloy-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. alloy-digest Monday, September 17 2001 Volume 06 : Number 246 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Alloy: Mood Lightener ["Chris & Beena Cracknell" ] Alloy: Heh [Elaine Linstruth ] Alloy: More Lighter Moments [Elaine Linstruth ] Re: Alloy: RE: Retribution response [ Subject: Re: Alloy: Mood Lightener - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sally Allan" > What a kind idea! After all, imagine getting out of hospital to find your > pet is dead. Or, imagine going into your friend/relative's apartment after > their death to find their dead pet...either would be an added trauma at a I had a friend who had to clean up an apartment after an unforunate incident of pet starvation. This person in his building went to Europe for 3 month and got a friend to stay in his apartment and look after it and his great dane for him. Well his friend was killed in a car accident only a week after the guy went on vacation so the dog ended up starving. The guy appearently left messages on his answering machine but just assumed he had always just missed his friend who might have gone out of the apartment. What a thing to come home to. Your friend dead, and your dog dead. Apearently cleaning up a great dane that is almost 3 months dead is no picnic either. Crackers (not so great dane from hell!!!) CrAB - http://www.hwcn.org/~ad329/crab.html The Official Bira Bira Webpage - http://birabira.chaosmagic.com Ghastly's Ghastly Comic - http://ghastly.keenspace.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 11:07:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Elaine Linstruth Subject: Alloy: URL -- Thank you from America The Volkswagon pictures are amazing. This takes forever to load, but is worth the wait. Thank you, everyone. - -- Elaine Linstruth Palmdale, CA, USA "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 "The American people must be willing to give up a degree of personal privacy in exchange for safety and security." -- FBI Director Louis Freeh, 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 11:07:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Elaine Linstruth Subject: Alloy: Heh Would help if I gave you the address, wouldn't it. http://140.141.24.32/wtc/thankyou.html - -- Elaine Linstruth Palmdale, CA, USA "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 "The American people must be willing to give up a degree of personal privacy in exchange for safety and security." -- FBI Director Louis Freeh, 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 17:55:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Elaine Linstruth Subject: Alloy: More Lighter Moments I will be really sorry, I really will, if any of you find this offensive, but I just finished laughing out load at the radio (needless to say, first time in nearly a week). A perfectly nice caller, older lady, born and raised in the UK with a very proper accent and excellent enuciation and all that -- she called to offer some advice. Here is what the world should do, according to this dear lady: Make big bombs, but NOT with explosives, with pig blood. Once a Muslim touches pig blood he can never get into Heaven, is the prevailing logic. I guess we're supposed to make these water-balloon style? I wasn't sure. I don't even know if that's true (the Muslim & pork part). I guess we just drop them on the individual terrorists in question, and they will no longer fight because nothing they do will get them into Heaven. Maybe I'm just not thinking creatively and this really is a viable idea. (The radio host finished this exchange by thanking her, pointing out the added benefit that this would give us a surplus of bacon, and muttering, "I love my job.") I just had to laugh. Seemed like an odd little tension-breaker, sorta like how we all now wish to retire to Copenhagen. :) The caller before her said the only reason anyone suicide-bombed America was for our fuel cell technology. There sure are lots of ideas out there. Hoping everyone's staying well, Elaine - -- Elaine Linstruth Palmdale, CA, USA "The commitment of our fathers is now the calling of our time." ~~ President George W. Bush, September 14, 2001 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 01:13:52 +0100 From: Subject: Re: Alloy: RE: Retribution response Sorry for the delay in this follow up. I've had PC problems and haven't picked up my mail since about last Thursday. Damien Sweeney wrote: > Alloy friends, > > > >I understand the desire for retribution, and I > certainly agree that the > guilty > >parties should be tracked down and brought to > justice, assuming that it IS > >possible to find out exactly who was responsible. > > We do not need to find out who was "exactly" > responsible. Those people are > dead now. We need to find those that set it up AND > those that helped them. > This is not a small number of people, it is an > entire nation or nations. > This is not solved by placing one or two in the > electric chair. The biggest > terrorist attack in the history of the world, the > single biggest attack > against the US, on our soil, warrants a full scale > military response. > Period. > You took my words too literaly. I didn't mean just those people who carried out the attacks, but those who organised it, others involved and not yet caught, in fact all those in the organisation which was responsible, IF you can identify them. I don't believe for one moment that it's an entire nation but a RELATIVELY small number of people in some nations, and they'll be difficult to track down, but that should still be our objective. > > >But don't be too quick to condemn the small number > of people celebrating > >the murder and destruction in America. If you > haven't lived how they've > lived > >you have no experience of their perspective. > > Listen, just because a few people had a bad > childhood does not excuse what > they did. Of course this is a vast > oversimplification but the point really > is just that simple. Their response to this act > showed the entire world > that they are barbarians and savages and celebrate > human suffering. Whether > or not it is their fault they are that way is of > little concern. If their > "upbringing" and "their perspective" is any reason > for understanding them, > then perhaps people will understand the way > Americans are brought up as we > demonstrate our perspective. These people will be > stopped to save others > from suffering. > I'm not talking about a few people who had a bad childhood. I'm talking about the thousands in the middle east who've been in conflict for generations, who've never had a home and who can only expect that their whole lives will be spent figthing over what is Holy ground to both sides. Each side gets help from outside agencies which arguably makes the conflict worse. Is it not undertandable that either side might want to hit out at those agencies as a way of furthering their cause? This is one reason why the IRA attacks targets in mainland Britain, as well as on their own soil. > > >The problems in the Middle East are extremely > complicated and I can > understand > >the frustration of those caught in the middle of it... > > Problems always seem complicated until they are solved: > > > This solution is simple. We all know the one > solution that will work. It's > ugly and a last resort - but we are there now. The > only question is if we > have the resolve to finish the job or not (my > symbolic "salt the earth" > comment). You are correct about Vietnam and Saddam > Hussain - you make my > point. The US has grown fat and happy and has not > taken threats or even war > seriously. There are simple solutions (mostly > simple because we have the > tools and means) to these problems and we need to > resolve to finish the job > and rid the world of these people AND those that > help them (entire > governments/countries). These "few" are heros in > their countries and > supported world wide. > Catching and punishing those who attacked the US this week is not the solution to the underlying problems. It will stop THEM attacking again, but if the grievances in the middle east are not resolved to the satisfaction of both sides, the conflict will continue. THAT'S the real problem. Until they can agree to live together and tolerate each other, the conflict will continue. If we really want stabilty in that region we should act as honest brokers to ensure there's a solution acceptable to both sides, regardless of whether there's anything in it for us at the end. That isn't an easy solution to achieve. Generations of mistrust have to be forgotten and it's not human nature to do so. > > >... There are no simple solutions. If there were there would be no > >conflict in the Middle East and no IRA cells on the British mainland. > > You cannot reason with these people - they are > religious fanatics who get to > heaven by killing people. This is a new kind of > enemy and people are uneasy > about this absolute and brutal way that they must be > fought. But, this make > the solution very simple - if we only have the > resolve. Make no mistake - > we may kill women and children in our attacks and > that is horrible too. War > is horrible. BUT the difference here is that we do > not primarily strike at > them and other innocents, then hide in the shadows > and claim no > responsibility for what we've done. We also rebuild > every country that we > war against with tons of money and other aid and > install a government that > ensures freedom (or at least one that was better > than before). War and all > that comes with it is an appropriate response to > defend against this enemy. > When we fought Germany and Japan we did not single > out only those in command > - we went to war against entire nations and "fixed" > the problem. We also > did not ask the opinion of the rest of the world > before doing so. And > aren't you glad. The Brits would be "enjoying" > living on the biggest island > in the German empire if it were not for > American "arrogance" and our "knee > jerk reactions". The single best part of life in > England may have been the > German beer... - yes, really. > You can speculate about what would have happened if the US hadn't stepped in when they did, but we'll never really know. If they'd joined in earlier perhaps less lives would have been lost. If Hitler hadn't insisted on trying to fight on both eastern and western fronts and had waited until later to attack Russia maybe he'd have had the resources to win the war in the west. (I read something interesting recently about most wars/battles being lost by poor tactics rather than won by good ones, which is an interesting theory, and makes sense to me.) If, if, if ...... It's pointless to speculate. WWII was a war of country against country, army against army, not army against a bunch of natives hiding out in the hills and forests. I'll repeat my point again. A rag-tag bunch of little guys, living in tunnels dug by hand, could not be defeated by the US in Vietnam, and the Russian army could not destroy the Mujahedin. As was illustrated in the message from Sean, Afghanistan is already destroyed, and bombing Kabul will achieve little other than killing lots of people who've already lost almost everything and are living in hell. > > >...So, don't be too quick to advocate a full scale > military retaliation. > Once you > >take the first step it's very hard to stop... > > The first step HAS been taken. Your phrasing above > indicates that you have > totally missed that. That phrase alone may discount > all of your other > comments. How in God's name can what WE do next be > the FIRST step? We are > talking about a response here. Let's not argue about the precise words. The FIRST step was taken decades ago, maybe after the end of WWII, but probably long before that. What I meant was that once you take a step over the line into military action, it's hard to stop. You're committed. You may want to stop, or you may wish you'd never taken that step, but you're committed and it's not possible to stop. Things escalate and you're in a lot deeper than you intended. What did they say at the beginning of WWI in 1914? 'It'll all be over by Christmas.' But it wasn't, and millions of lives were wasted fighting over some muddy fields in France. Of course, we couldn't allow Germany to take over Europe, but the cost was much higher than anyone expected. All I'm saying is, if you're going to commit, make sure you know what you're committing to, and don't be under any illusion that it'll be a quick and easy campaign, because about the only thing you can be certain of is, it won't. Explore all options before deciding on a course of action. If the US killed everyone in Afghanistan they would alienate themselves from their allies and probably wouldn't destroy those responsible for the attacks anyway. They'd be long gone. Only the innocent would be unable to flee. I don't know what the best course of action should be, but I'm sure it would NOT be genocide in Afgahnistan. > America is not a bunch of imperialists > making people live as we do. If so the middle east > would be the 51st state > and we would have control of the oil we need. We > are always careful not to > take the first step (the cold war ring a bell????). > Being timid in our > responses has led to this. > No, we're more subtle than that. We use covert methods to achieve our objectives. Imperialism by stealth, but the result is the same. We drain the resources of the developing world and give comparatively little back, then abandon them. I say 'we' because the UK's track record shows that we've meddled in the affairs of other countries many times in history, and lived to regret it. We ruled in India for many years, but eventually we just wanted out, and the cost was great. We did the same with Ireland and we're still living with the consequences. (BTW, it wasn't I who mentioned NORAID, but the point was still valid.) Our history is littered with events that we should be ashamed of and I don't want to be part of a generation that is responsible for destroying an entire nation, the majority of whom ARE innocent. > > >... It's extremely difficult to fight an enemy you can't see and who > doesn't 'play by the >rules.'... > > Exactly. You make my point. Especially this type > of enemy who exists > across many borders. The aggressor sets the "rules" > and since there aren't > any rules I will not shed a tear for these or those > that help them. This is > a way of life for numerous countries and they are > making others suffer. Who > has the will and strength to make them stop? What > country has the single > best track record in this? If not us - who? If not > now - when? How many > more lives WILL finally justify a response that is > significant enough to end this? You can't blame an entire nation for the actions of its dictator and his followers. Don't we learn anything from history? We're being attacked in a new way, so we need to devise a new and appropriate response, not stick to those old methods which have consistently failed in the past. Bill __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 19:17:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Robin Thurlow Subject: Re: Alloy: one American's perspective I must say, Elaine, you and I are coming from just about the same direction in terms of being both physically and mentally prepared for this. Dave and I are going over our various plans for survival, together with relatives north of here who are nurses & getting medical/radiation supplies and arranging a secure place of retreat, amongst other things. I'm taking the first CPR/emergency first aid course I can find around here & brushing up on martial arts studies (which will mean squat if the bombs start falling, but may help protect if I should be on an airplane sometime & someone tries to take it over.. or if ground troops should invade) I wanted to clarify that my comments yesterday about divisive behavior were directed at Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and their horrible statements blaming feminists, lesbians, gays, people with any sort of 'alternative lifestyle', and so on... for this attack having happened. It just so happens that just about everyone I know is either a feminist, or a lesbian, or gay, or pursuing an 'alternative lifestyle', or some combination of those & other things, including myself. I could not be more appalled by these divisive words which alienated a HUGE portion of the American public who want to defend our country and what it's supposed to stand for. Because of their statements I have felt it necessary to stop wearing the pretty marcasite cross Dave gave me two Christmases ago, I'm sorry to say, until they issue a complete apology to everyone they have offended. Which will probably be never. I am instead wearing a heavy chain link choker from the hardware store in protest. Also, I've decided to wear black clothing only, for as long as this conflict goes on, in mourning to honor those injured and dead. (before, there might be colors involved as accents, but not anymore!!) Not that anyone will care about the black clothes *or* the hardware store things, but at least it will make me feel better personally. Meanwhile, to mention more meaningful endeavors... Dave is talking to a lot of other artists internationally, to try to come up with an interactive project that might bring people together. This would be in the tradition of artists in regions of Africa who would build a large structure when times of trouble hit their town. The creation of something new signified a new beginning, and a psychic healing for the people who visited it. It also would fall into the Fluxus movement, I think (a favorite of mine) xxxx Robin T brought to you by the Beatles' "Fixing a Hole" (coincidence..!) __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 20:26:10 -0600 From: "Keith Stansell" Subject: Alloy: It came to lunch, and remained one week. The latest B horror movie? No, the latest weekly installment of "Lyric Fun With The Babel Fish Translator". This week, what was once a love gone wrong song becomes a transgendered song badly gone by love. Here to lighten the mood I present the English to French to English translation of : CLOSE YOU BUT NO CIGAR by Dolby Of Thomas You came narrowly. Close you but no cigar. You did not miss by far. You know that you came this narrowly. Close you but none cigar Some sing love songs. Everyone obtained one. It is not my love song. It is more like my song badly gone by love... It came to lunch, and remained one week. But the lie detectors broke up each time it tried to speak. With broken up when she said: " you came narrowly. Close you but no cigar. You did not miss by far. You know that you came this narrowly. Close you but no cigar. Anywhere you are. You know that you came this narrowly. Close you but no cigar " I remember that - I remember - I remember The promise in your eyes. As black as the night I led you to the airport. And I remember that - I remember - I remember the broad sky of Brazillian which swallowed you. Then I struck thirty. Conjecture I cannot complain. But I must have been only The night when I knocked myself in Lorraine. It came for the coffee and remained all the night. But the lie detectors broke up each time I tried to smile. With broken up like the stock of my life. And each dream which I missed per half by thousand. With broken up when I said to him: " you came narrowly fine but no cigar. You did not miss by far. You know that you came this fine narrow but no cigar. Anywhere you are, you know that you came so narrow. Close you but no cigar. You did not miss by far. You know that you came this narrowly. Close you but no cigar. We are not on line better by far. But you know that we came this narrowly. Close you but no cigar. - -Keith ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 04:04:15 +0100 From: "Sally Allan" Subject: Re: Alloy: It came to lunch, and remained one week. Keith, I love these things! Right now, alittle laughter is a tonic. I especially like: >The night when I knocked myself in Lorraine. Ooer.... >It came for the coffee >and remained all the night. This *does* sound like a horror B-movie: "IT CAME FOR THE COFFEE"..... Poor Thomas, slaving over his lyrics so we can snort with laughter at a bad translation. Can we please have "I live in a suitcase" next? I have a feeling that could be *very* funny.... Sally ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 20:53:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Robin Thurlow Subject: Re: Alloy: It came to lunch, and remained one week. - --- Sally Allan wrote: > I especially like: > > >The night when I knocked myself in Lorraine. > > Ooer.... LOL! :) > >It came for the coffee > >and remained all the night. > This *does* sound like a horror B-movie: "IT CAME > FOR THE COFFEE"..... When i read that in the title of Keith's post, I thought it sounded like a line from Edward Gorey's 'The Doubtful Guest': It joined them at breakfast and presently ate All the syrup and toast, and part of a plate.... > Poor Thomas, slaving over his lyrics so we can snort > with laughter at a bad > translation. Can we please have "I live in a > suitcase" next? I have a > feeling that could be *very* funny.... Looking forward to this (and thanks Keith for going to the trouble of doing these, I need to laugh lately.. my brain is pudding from worry and migraine meds which I've been on steadily since Tuesday, and I don't even know what the hell I'm talking about anymore, which is probably obvious to everyone by now) xxxxx Robin T __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ End of alloy-digest V6 #246 ***************************