From: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org (alloy-digest) To: alloy-digest@smoe.org Subject: alloy-digest V6 #245 Reply-To: alloy@smoe.org Sender: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "alloy-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. alloy-digest Sunday, September 16 2001 Volume 06 : Number 245 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Alloy: Taliban Not Afghan? [Sean Carolan ] Re: Alloy: Step back and take a deep breath ["pam.harrison" ] Alloy: one American's perspective [Elaine Linstruth ] Alloy: Mood Lightener [Robyn Moore ] Re: Alloy: Mood Lightener ["Keith Stansell" ] Re: Alloy: Mood Lightener [Robin Thurlow ] Alloy: Soft Boys/Thomas Dolby SF tour diary page [Robin Thurlow ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:31:10 -0400 From: Sean Carolan Subject: Alloy: Taliban Not Afghan? All, In the interest of "knowing thine enemy", I've done a bit of reading on Bin Laden et. al, courtesy the folks at PBS's "Frontline": http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/ Most chilling is a piece about the "interview" that Bin Laden staged for ABC News in 1998, written by the interviewer: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/who/miller.html Ultimately, Bin Laden and his cronies are Saudis and who came to Afghanistan, a broken country, and decided to use their extremist views as the basis for government. Though their brand of Islam would have you believe differently, they belong in Afghanistan as rightfully as Britain belongs in India (which is to say, not rightfully at all.) So what do average Afghanis think about this? Try this piece by Tamim Ansary on. (Disclaimer: this has now been forwarded to me twice, and though it seems to have the passionate ring of truth, I cannot be entirely sure it isn't propaganda.) - -------BEGIN TAMIM'S ARTICLE----- I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What else can we do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we "have the belly to do what must be done." And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing. I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York. I agree that something must be done about those monsters. But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps." It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats nest of international thugs holed up in their country. Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering. A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food. There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban. We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age. Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already. Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses? Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that. New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away and hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only be making common cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the people they've been raping all this time So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just because some Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that folks. Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I'm going. We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West. And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the west wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, that's even better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong, in the end the west would win, whatever that would mean, but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that? Bin Laden does. Anyone else? - - Tamim Ansary - -------END TAMIM'S ARTICLE------- I'm not naive enough to say "well, that about wraps it up" because every time I have, I've found it to be premature. In fact, our thinking that "the people will rise up against their discredited leaders" is what ultimately left the mess in Iraq. There's a job that has to be done - I hope our leaders can figure out what it is. - -Sean ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:25:43 +0100 From: "pam.harrison" Subject: Re: Alloy: Step back and take a deep breath The subject says it all. Perhaps it is time to remember the dead and forget the living and their desire for revenge. Make no mistake - my first reaction was that they should bomb the Middle East to Hell, but then the enormity of the situation struck home. We are all in mourning - at present the figures show up to 10% of the missing presumed dead are British. A Dutch friend has lost colleagues. Every day I have been talking to people in the financial institutions in London who have lost workmates and friends. A man in the village where I live has lost a son. These acts of violence have affected us all. Pam __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 12:13:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Robin Thurlow Subject: Re: Alloy: Taliban Not Afghan? Sean, thanks for the article from Tamim Ansary. And thanks to everyone for contributing your opinions. As many have been saying, I agree it's crucial to take a deep breath, and look at all sides of this issue as clearly as we can. Our lives depend on it. Americans owe it to ourselves as well as the global community to examine our own place in the world, and do so with great objectivity. We must balance ourselves and join with our friends right now. An overreaction at this point could mean the end of everything. Seeing the World Trade Towers collapse and hearing the stories of loved ones lost in flights, buildings, and on the ground was unbearably nightmarish enough. I don't want to watch the entire world go down after them. All of my love & support to everyone who is feeling fear, pain, and alienation at this moment. I know those feelings. We have to stand together and not let ignorant statements divide us. This applies to Americans within our own country, as well as the international community of friends who have already been facing down terrorism and war on their own soil for far too long. We need to learn from our friends and stand strong, to work toward an atmosphere of peace. I know it will be a rough road though. Pam, you're right about the children acting up in front of the camera in their celebrations of the destruction. I also have to say that I have never fainted before in my life... but over the past five days, I have repeatedly felt very close to it with all that is happening and will happen. xxxxx Robin T __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 12:17:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Elaine Linstruth Subject: Alloy: one American's perspective Dear friends, I've been writing a message for three days. It started out angry for awhile, then I changed it, pleading for calm, then it went to being full of all the fears in my heart. I'm gonna scrap it and just send a message to my friends and to the world. I am an American woman. A wife and a mother, I'll be 34 in a few months. My 10th marriage anniversary is coming this winter. I generally keep to myself and try to be self-sufficient. I'm not particularly religious. I've been personally involved in the movement to wake my fellow citizens out of their comas (because our government is - was and is - completely out of control), for about three years. Our country's patriot community knows the rest of the world views America with disdain. One of the differences is, we know that holding the citizens of America responsible in that regard is somewhat misguided, because we have been asleep and not paying attention to the actions of the so-called leaders for a very long time. (Where the real blame lies? A very long story and completely open to interpretation anyway.) The maddening thing is it's been within our power all along. We the People were handed the means, in fact given the responsibility, to reign in the government when it usurps its boundaries. Not only have we not done this, we've let it become a five-headed monster in the process. It was very disheartening trying to figure out how to put the bureaucracy back in its cage when it's SO huge and widespread, and has its tentacles in EVERY aspect of our lives, utterly outside its own lawful jurisdiction by the way, with the vast majority of people having abdicated their responsibilities. It's not that I blame them. It's nice to live a comfortable life. It's really great when your biggest worries include how to get to soccer practice on time. As I've said before, we have an Independence Day holiday for the express purpose of drinking beer & watching fireworks, and sitting around talking about how great it is to have the freedom to sit around drinking beer & watching fireworks. Unfortunately those carefree days are at an end. We in America have been living in a nice glossy pink bubble. The sleeping giant was awakened on Tuesday, September 11. What comes of it? I don't even want to utter my guess out loud. What I can tell you is that the comfortable slumber of the American people has to be more completely overcome first, THEN they'll be faced with the reality of war and the fear that goes along with it. This of course has begun, but is going to take awhile. When you think about the American people, remember that they've just been hit from two sides at once. My own personal "comfortable slumber" was broken a long time ago. I've had time to come to grips with a more realistic view of life and the responsibilities we have. If I told you last week the many battles I've been fighting, you'd have called me a "typical government-hating nut." I have, in fact, been called that. Some would even throw me into that innocuous label of right-wing extremist. Completely unfounded, absolutely: just as unfounded as the black-trenchcoat label after Columbine, or a hundred other ridiculous stereotypes. Instead, today, I'm proud to say I'm relatively prepared, and I don't mean just with bottled water. I mean my heart and soul knows what's ahead. Unlike many Americans, the men I know are not advocating sending someone else to do the job; they want to go personally. They do not believe in leaving serious work to others. They know the costs of liberty. I could go on and on. The bottom line, as far as this list is concerned, is that this back and forth namecalling and blaming has got to stop. Our group barely survived last November/December. The America bashing, fun sport that is sometimes is, has no place here. If anyone is lashing out in grief and anger, I don't think it helps much to continue arguing in public about it. Even if he or she *were* a cold-hearted bastard, the logic isn't there. I've known you folks for nearly a decade. I was here in the very beginning, just as many of you. But I'm tellin' you right now, the misery that has become my country ..and more importantly the misery to come, is too much to handle as it is -- piling on more hurt feelings and angry diatribes and useless personal swipes? Well, we've all got too much else on our minds now. We no longer have the free time. We never really did. If you don't like someone saying they want bombs to fly, then just please hit and get on with your life. That's what I've been doing all week! I don't even mind someone saying "America Sucks" if they've got a valid discussion premise. You know what? Parts of it do suck. I don't *like* that some of the angriest moments for me of the last few days have come from Alloy, but emotions are running so high it's unavoidable right now. I refuse to turn it around throw it back into the mix. The up side to that is, the only reason we even care to get angry about the various comments is our fondness for each other. I won't waste my time arguing with strangers about whom I don't care. Thank you to Melissa for effectively defusing the boiling-over point yesterday. I'm here to beg everyone to please, let's all do our part to keep it from happening again. Count to 10 before hitting enter. Count to 20. Enemies abound, and part of what's so terrifying is that we don't know where exactly. Don't take this out on each other. If we all can't come together as a refuge from the constant fear on the outside, and as a diversion from the never-ending television and radio stream, then we might as well just disband right now and save each other the heartache. Elaine ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 13:31:20 -0700 From: Robyn Moore Subject: Alloy: Mood Lightener In the interest of relieving a bit of the tension here, I offer up the following link, which was found on a list that Kevin belongs to. http://www.phillyburbs.com/couriertimes/news/news/0906porn.htm The basic gist is that caretakers in Copenhagen have discovered that providing pornography and prostitutes to the elderly in nursing homes is a more effective method of helping the residents stay calm than drugging them into submission is. Sounds reasonable to me. Robyn M @ Robyn Moore @ http://www.wiccans.net/robyn.html @ You knew the job was dangerous when you took it. - S.C. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 17:46:56 -0600 From: "Keith Stansell" Subject: Re: Alloy: Mood Lightener Gosh, wish I was in a nursing home in Copenhagen! Probably frees up the beds of those with weak hearts also. - -ohhh bad. - -Keith - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robyn Moore" To: Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 2:31 PM Subject: Alloy: Mood Lightener > > In the interest of relieving a bit of the tension here, I offer up the > following link, which was found on a list that Kevin belongs to. > http://www.phillyburbs.com/couriertimes/news/news/0906porn.htm > > The basic gist is that caretakers in Copenhagen have discovered that > providing pornography and prostitutes to the elderly in nursing homes is a > more effective method of helping the residents stay calm than drugging them > into submission is. Sounds reasonable to me. > > Robyn M > > > @ Robyn Moore > @ http://www.wiccans.net/robyn.html > @ You knew the job was dangerous when you took it. - S.C. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 19:33:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Robin Thurlow Subject: Re: Alloy: Mood Lightener This is not as much fun as the Copenhagen nursing home mood-lightener, but I have been wanting to mention something that made me feel a lot better a few days ago. Last week, I had gotten my act together enough to finally order a CD I'd been wanting to hear, the Soft Boys' re-released "Underwater Moonlight". For those just joining... this band includes Robyn Hitchcock and Matthew Seligman, both of whom have worked extensively with Thomas. Thomas recently made a special guest appearance at The Soft Boys' show in April at San Francisco's Fillmore Theater. If you do a search for them, their tour diary may still be available (I can't check it out at the moment unfortunately, because of internet weirdness here) which includes a photo of Thomas. Anyway, the CD arrived on Tuesday, but I didn't want to listen to it that day. But on Wednesday night I had to stay up til 4am finishing a sculpture for class, and so I played it to keep me company. It *really* cheered me up, so much so that I listened to it repeatedly the whole time I worked. If anyone has yet to hear this recoring, i highly recommend it! It's a double CD, the second of which consisting of the band's practice takes. Haven't heard this disk yet (I'm saving it for next time... this music is great for sculpting :) Another happy thing... my friend Michele is a cellist, designer and vegan, who is now working toward becoming an animal rights lawyer. Her family are supportive of her & have become interested in animal rights as well. Michele's mom works in NYC.. and since the disaster, she's singlehandedly organised a relief effort for the pets of those who are still missing, so they won't starve in victims' apartments by themselves. It's really wonderful, I think. She lost three friends who worked in the North Tower BTW, and checking to see if pets are being looked after is one way to provide comfort to their (and other victims') little loved ones who are missing them right now. Please take care everyone. I apologise if anything I've said has hurt anyone's feelings recently... I've just been very nervous and upset (as has everyone) xxxxx Robin T __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 19:58:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Robin Thurlow Subject: Alloy: Soft Boys/Thomas Dolby SF tour diary page I've sneaked out to get the link for you, if you'd like to see... http://www.underwatermoonlight.com/diary/sanfrancisco.html xxxxx Robin T __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 05:51:50 +0100 From: "Sally Allan" Subject: Re: Alloy: Mood Lightener > Michele's mom works in NYC.. and > since the disaster, she's singlehandedly organised a > relief effort for the pets of those who are still > missing, so they won't starve in victims' apartments > by themselves What a kind idea! After all, imagine getting out of hospital to find your pet is dead. Or, imagine going into your friend/relative's apartment after their death to find their dead pet...either would be an added trauma at a very bad time. And then there's the poor pets too....I'd be deeply grateful to anyone who looked after my cats in those circumstances. It's a very thoughtful thing to do. Sally ------------------------------ End of alloy-digest V6 #245 ***************************