From: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org (alloy-digest) To: alloy-digest@smoe.org Subject: alloy-digest V6 #244 Reply-To: alloy@smoe.org Sender: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "alloy-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. alloy-digest Friday, September 14 2001 Volume 06 : Number 244 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Alloy: Solidarity [lulfstedt@amadeus.net] Alloy: My 2c worth [jonathan.chiddick@nokia.com] Alloy: RE: My 2c worth; an additional 1c [jonathan.chiddick@nokia.com] Re: Alloy: Solidarity [Robin Thurlow ] Alloy: How you can help. ["Keith Stansell" ] Re: Alloy: RE: My 2c worth; an additional 1c ["Chris & Beena Cracknell" <] Re: Alloy: How you can help. [Robin Thurlow ] Alloy: RE: Retribution response [Damien Sweeney ] Re: Alloy: RE: Retribution response [Robin Thurlow ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:25:57 +0200 From: lulfstedt@amadeus.net Subject: Re: Alloy: Solidarity Hi Robin, Melissa, everyone at Alloy, Finally back on line here - just wanted to express my shock, horror and outrage at the events in the US on Tuesday, and to send our American friends a message of my deepest sympathy and support. You are all in our thoughts over here. At international companies here in France's 'Telecom Valley', people can hardly even comprehend what has happened, and the sense of pain, disbelief and outrage is barely containable. Many people I know have lost colleagues and friends in the attack, (one of my friends lost half of his team and his mentor of many years). Perhaps due to the especially multinational nature of this area we live and work in, (we are of 10 nationalities in our team alone,) the overall feeling here is that this was an act perpetrated not only against our American friends on American soil, but against all the nationalities, ethnicities and groups that worked in the WTC. It feels like an attack on the civilised world as a whole. All nationalities, all innocents - it's beyond belief why anyone would attack this place. A military installation maybe, but not an international civilian establishment such as this? I like all of you hope that the perpetrators of this horror are quickly brought to justice, and I hope, without any further loss of innocent lives. We are thinking of you, Best wishes, Lissu From: Robin Thurlow @smoe.org on 12/09/2001 19:34 MST Please respond to alloy@smoe.org Sent by: owner-alloy@smoe.org To: alloy@smoe.org cc: Subje Re: Alloy: Solidarity ct: I agree that the people who have orchestrated this horror must be brought to justice immediately, and I have hope that with the help of the powerful and discerning NATO nations, we will be able to learn exactly who is responsible, and do so swiftly and above all, accurately. There is a worldwide investigation underway and I can't imagine there will be any way for the attackers to stay hidden for long. They will be faced with the concentrated intelligence and power of nations who have brought down this kind of evil in the past. I am continuing to hear bad news... there is still no word about my friend's husband, who is an NYPD cop & hasn't been heard from since the attack. Another friend's father is missing (he's a businessman with offices in the former Twin Towers of the WTC) and she & her mom are there tonight, checking area hospitals. I'm extremely sickened to hear of people in various places actually celebrating this attack. There is no way any decent human being could possibly celebrate such an act of horror, regardless of who the victims are. In the face of this I only hope we can all manage to stay sane and not overreact. I've just heard news out of NYC that a man was arrested there, trying to run down a Pakistani woman with his car. When questioned, he said he was just trying to "protect his country". It's a very fine line we're all treading here. We're all very upset and angry. We have to look at the larger picture, and not lash out at those around us. The faction which supports terrorism certainly does not encompass an entire race of people, many of whom strongly abhor violence and are deeply mourning this disaster. xxxx Robin T __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:10:38 +0300 From: jonathan.chiddick@nokia.com Subject: Alloy: My 2c worth Dear all, I just want to say how gutted I feel at what has happened. In these moments of pain and anger don't forget when condemning those who support, harbor and sponsor terrorism that there is a very thin line between perceptions of right and wrong - especially where the USA is concerned. Bin Laden (and this is assuming he was anything to do with it) was bankrolled and supported directly by the USA when the 'previous enemy' (the Soviet Union) were viciously attacking Afghanistan. Through NORAID countless civilian men women and children and military persons alike have lost their lives by the generous and frankly still continuing financial support offered by American citizens to the IRA. Sadam Hussein was afterall an ally of the US during the Iran/Iraq war. The list is very long; the memory generally short. When the perpetrators are identified, which they surely will be, it will give me no pleasure or satisfaction whatsoever to see their whole country scorched out of existence. Nevertheless I will neither speak against such actions or support it. My disgust has gone further than normal ethics provide for. If a wholesale indiscriminate strike were to be made the vast majority of casualties would, as always, be innocents. The guilty that didn't choose to die in the attacks are likely already long-gone or on the way to new places of hiding. Such actions would be purely stooping to the level of the scum that executed the attack on Tuesday. The analogy of 'dropping the bomb' is a sound one. Unfortunately the terrorists already 'dropped the bomb' on America and even if the guilty are identified there will very likely be no way to exacting revenge without wiping out huge numbers of innocent people. These crazed groups already consider the US to be the terrorists. Uncontrolled and unfocussed responses will only further confirm this to their warped minds. Damiens obviously heartfelt outburst although momentarily semi-understandable is utterly indefensible. Thanks Slarv for adding such well collected and wise words. Chins-up. We all need to be as rational as possible about this. There is no solution in indiscriminate killing. Americans as 'defenders of the free world' must understand that better than anyone. I am truly saddened and sickened in what I have seen over the past couple of days. The guilty INDIVIDUALS must be hunted down and made to pay for this and NOT their unwilling proxies chosen simply by geographical location. The momentary sweetness of such a revenge would have an aftertaste that would never go away for the American people or indeed all peoples of the world. I don't want to see anymore innocent people hideously perish live on CNN. Jon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:17:01 +0300 From: jonathan.chiddick@nokia.com Subject: Alloy: RE: My 2c worth; an additional 1c If you hadn't already had enough here is a further indicator of the hatred and venom to be found on our own doorsteps try this. Open a new MS Word document Type in capital letters NYC (for New York City) Enlarge the font size to be reasonably big, say 100 Change the font type to Wingdings Surprised? Disgusted? Coincidence surely? Try the same thing with Webdings font. After all those programmers at MS are just normal Joes like me and you. Good luck all. We're all in this together. Jon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:39:33 -0400 From: Robin Thurlow Subject: Re: Alloy: Solidarity Thanks so much Lissu and Jon for your insight. Lissu, I'm very sorry to hear this tragedy has touched people you are close to. lulfstedt@amadeus.net wrote: > Perhaps due to the especially multinational nature of this area we live and > work in, (we are of 10 nationalities in our team alone,) the overall > feeling here is that this was an act perpetrated not only against our > American friends on American soil, but against all the nationalities, > ethnicities and groups that worked in the WTC. It feels like an attack on > the civilised world as a whole. > > All nationalities, all innocents - it's beyond belief why anyone would > attack this place. A military installation maybe, but not an international > civilian establishment such as this? I seems to me, too, like an especially multinational tragedy. The going assumption is that the terrorists were attempting to shut the US down completely in preparation for further attack from within, by striking at the headquarters for both military and trade. It may also have been symbolic of these things they feel are ruining the rest of the world. But I've just heard this morning that more men believed to be connected with Bin Ladin were arrested trying to board LA-bound flights with knives and razors, though these things are now strictly forbidden even on airport grounds. jonathan.chiddick@nokia.com wrote: > Bin > Laden (and this is assuming he was anything to do with it) was bankrolled > and supported directly by the USA when the 'previous enemy' (the Soviet > Union) were viciously attacking Afghanistan. Through NORAID countless > civilian men women and children and military persons alike have lost their > lives by the generous and frankly still continuing financial support offered > by American citizens to the IRA. > Sadam Hussein was afterall an ally of the US during the Iran/Iraq war. The > list is very long; the memory generally short. This is one thing that I found completely outrageous. On CNN they interviewed a former White House official who said the US would have to attack and kill (he used the word "kill") everyone who had ever supported terrorism.. though of course, it's common knowledge that the US has supported terrorism around the world for decades. It's very lucrative, apparently. And I can't stop thinking that when people heard of the wars going on in African nations, with families being hacked to bits over land rights, and the diamond companies bankrolling (and becoming even wealthier by) it all, I don't know one single American who made a statement by refusing to buy diamonds - even after it was well-reported by both the BBC and the New York Times, both very reliable and accurate sources of news. Also... absolutely no offense meant in the wake of this tragedy... but I must comment on the outrageous statements I keep hearing that imply "American lives" are somehow worth more than other lives (or that any nation's citizens are worth more... etc) At this point in the development of world trade and community, if we don't think of ourselves as equal brothers and sisters to the world, we are being very stupid indeed. I am very patriotic & believe we have a good society, but certain things have gotten well out of hand. I don't like to think how true it is, especially in recent years, that it's all about money and not ethics. The statements about "American lives" is so hypocritical (it seems our own wealthy pharmaceuticals and insurance companies would rather see the less-fortunate Americans die than lose a dime of revenue) as well as being racist/nationalist. We have to join together with our friends to rid ourselves of a common enemy. We are still America, and very proud of the nation we have become, but we are all human & exactly the same. I know it is tempting to dehumanize the criminals who perpetrated this horror, but we must not. Isn't it all the more horrifying to think that human beings did this? > When the perpetrators are identified, which they surely will be, it will > give me no pleasure or satisfaction whatsoever to see their whole country > scorched out of existence. Nevertheless I will neither speak against such > actions or support it. My disgust has gone further than normal ethics > provide for. I feel the same way, Jon... I think of what may happen, and I am numb to the core. Incidentally, if anyone is interested in hearing a more localised NY-area take on this tragedy, you can tune in to our campus station & http://www.whrwfm.org. Many of the students have lost family and friends. On Wednesday, an American Muslim female student was assaulted by three male students who were dressed head-to-toe in red, white and blue. As you can imagine there are some lively discussions going on at the studio. xxxx Robin T ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:44:45 -0600 From: "Keith Stansell" Subject: Alloy: How you can help. Hi Everyone, I like everyone have been shocked, disturbed, saddened, scared, angered and a multitude of other emotions over the recent events. I don't completely understand the politics of the situation because sadly, like many Americans, I tend not to pay much attention to world events. I'll need to learn more about what is going on before I dare to comment. However, what I do know is that there are a lot of families in New York, DC and across the country who have suffered personal tragedy and loss due to the attacks Tuesday. Also, sadly, it now appears to me that the need for blood my not be as large as originally thought since there appears to be few people emerging from the rubble. I'm not discouraging anyone from giving blood, and I do plan on donating after the inital rush to donate has calmed down. However, I think at this point, money is what is needed. For this reason, I ask everyone on Alloy who can, to donate to the Red Cross Disaster Relief Fund to help the relief effort and the families of the victims. I keep thinking of the children who have lost one or more parents this week and how tragic that is. You make a donation online by credit card through Amazon.com: http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/paypage/PKAXFNQH7EKCX/107-8339528-8236512 or call: Red Cross 1-800-HELP-NOW Give Blood 1-800-GIVE-LIFE Sincerely, Keith Stansell, Denver ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:17:03 -0400 From: "Chris & Beena Cracknell" Subject: Re: Alloy: RE: My 2c worth; an additional 1c - ----- Original Message ----- From: > Change the font type to Wingdings > > Surprised? Disgusted? Coincidence surely? Oh jeeze! That's not going to bode well at all. Bill Gates, an islamic radical. Who knew? Crackers CrAB - http://www.hwcn.org/~ad329/crab.html The Official Bira Bira Webpage - http://birabira.chaosmagic.com Ghastly's Ghastly Comic - http://ghastly.keenspace.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:24:48 -0400 From: Robin Thurlow Subject: Re: Alloy: How you can help. Thank you so much, Keith. I've been upset because I couldn't give blood (a medication I'm now taking would be toxic to many individuals, and would cause birth defects if given to a pregnant woman, so by law I am not permitted to donate blood) However I can & will most certainly make a financial donation. The link you provide makes it easy for me to do so. You make a very good point, in that we should all learn everything we can about this situation. Dave reminded me last night that the Allied Forces in WWII armed French civilians, and taught them 'terrorist' tactics against the Nazis which led directly to the downfall of the regime. As others have pointed out, it is very difficult to fight an enemy which has no central headquarters & strikes in small factions, and in secret. xxxx Robin T ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:02:38 -0500 From: Damien Sweeney Subject: Alloy: RE: Retribution response Alloy friends, I'm not "G.I. Joe" here. I don't even own a gun and I dread the thought of war - I really do. But I am concerned about the "sugar coating", the softening, the spin that is seeping into this catastrophe. This kind of talk is what has lead to our ineffective soft responses of the past. Slarv, - - Bill - I appreciate and respect your opinions but cannot let them go unanswered... >I understand the desire for retribution, and I certainly agree that the guilty >parties should be tracked down and brought to justice, assuming that it IS >possible to find out exactly who was responsible. We do not need to find out who was "exactly" responsible. Those people are dead now. We need to find those that set it up AND those that helped them. This is not a small number of people, it is an entire nation or nations. This is not solved by placing one or two in the electric chair. The biggest terrorist attack in the history of the world, the single biggest attack against the US, on our soil, warrants a full scale military response. Period. >But don't be too quick to condemn the small number of people celebrating >the murder and destruction in America. If you haven't lived how they've lived >you have no experience of their perspective. Listen, just because a few people had a bad childhood does not excuse what they did. Of course this is a vast oversimplification but the point really is just that simple. Their response to this act showed the entire world that they are barbarians and savages and celebrate human suffering. Whether or not it is their fault they are that way is of little concern. If their "upbringing" and "their perspective" is any reason for understanding them, then perhaps people will understand the way Americans are brought up as we demonstrate our perspective. These people will be stopped to save others from suffering. >The problems in the Middle East are extremely complicated and I can understand >the frustration of those caught in the middle of it... Problems always seem complicated until they are solved: Julie and I tried to get our infant son Matthew to put the animal shaped blocks through the animal shaped holes in the little toy box. He watched us carefully as we showed him how they matched up and that they were color-coded to further help him. He then looked at us both and opened the hinged top of the box and proceeded to take handfuls of animal blocks and stuff them into the box - and then shut the lid and looked at us again as if to say "see?". It had a lasting effect. This solution is simple. We all know the one solution that will work. It's ugly and a last resort - but we are there now. The only question is if we have the resolve to finish the job or not (my symbolic "salt the earth" comment). You are correct about Vietnam and Saddam Hussain - you make my point. The US has grown fat and happy and has not taken threats or even war seriously. There are simple solutions (mostly simple because we have the tools and means) to these problems and we need to resolve to finish the job and rid the world of these people AND those that help them (entire governments/countries). These "few" are heros in their countries and supported world wide. >... There are no simple solutions. If there were there would be no >conflict in the Middle East and no IRA cells on the British mainland. You cannot reason with these people - they are religious fanatics who get to heaven by killing people. This is a new kind of enemy and people are uneasy about this absolute and brutal way that they must be fought. But, this make the solution very simple - if we only have the resolve. Make no mistake - we may kill women and children in our attacks and that is horrible too. War is horrible. BUT the difference here is that we do not primarily strike at them and other innocents, then hide in the shadows and claim no responsibility for what we've done. We also rebuild every country that we war against with tons of money and other aid and install a government that ensures freedom (or at least one that was better than before). War and all that comes with it is an appropriate response to defend against this enemy. When we fought Germany and Japan we did not single out only those in command - - we went to war against entire nations and "fixed" the problem. We also did not ask the opinion of the rest of the world before doing so. And aren't you glad. The Brits would be "enjoying" living on the biggest island in the German empire if it were not for American "arrogance" and our "knee jerk reactions". The single best part of life in England may have been the German beer... - yes, really. >...So, don't be too quick to advocate a full scale military retaliation. Once you >take the first step it's very hard to stop... The first step HAS been taken. Your phrasing above indicates that you have totally missed that. That phrase alone may discount all of your other comments. How in God's name can what WE do next be the FIRST step? We are talking about a response here. America is not a bunch of imperialists making people live as we do. If so the middle east would be the 51st state and we would have control of the oil we need. We are always careful not to take the first step (the cold war ring a bell????). Being timid in our responses has led to this. >... It's extremely difficult to fight an enemy you can't see and who doesn't 'play by the >rules.'... Exactly. You make my point. Especially this type of enemy who exists across many borders. The aggressor sets the "rules" and since there aren't any rules I will not shed a tear for these or those that help them. This is a way of life for numerous countries and they are making others suffer. Who has the will and strength to make them stop? What country has the single best track record in this? If not us - who? If not now - when? How many more lives WILL finally justify a response that is significant enough to end this? Damien ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:41:22 -0400 From: Robin Thurlow Subject: Re: Alloy: RE: Retribution response Damien Sweeney wrote: > We also rebuild every country that we > war against with tons of money and other aid and install a government that > ensures freedom (or at least one that was better than before). As far as I'm aware, this 'rebuilding' has to be repaid by the country at least once over, so it isn't charity from the United States, it is a business investment. The same thing applies to whatever government is 'installed' (and there are a fleet of questions to ask about which governments are insisted upon by the US to run other nations, and who is really benefitting, but these are covered in other forums online) It's nice to have assistance to rebuild, but I want to point out that it isn't a sacrifice the US Government is making in helping these people out after a war, by any means. > War and all > that comes with it is an appropriate response to defend against this enemy. > When we fought Germany and Japan we did not single out only those in command > - we went to war against entire nations and "fixed" the problem. We also > did not ask the opinion of the rest of the world before doing so. And > aren't you glad. The Brits would be "enjoying" living on the biggest island > in the German empire if it were not for American "arrogance" and our "knee > jerk reactions". The single best part of life in England may have been the > German beer... - yes, really. This is a huge insult, and completely uncalled for. American "arrogance" at its worst. All I have been thinking through this whole disaster on US soil is how I only hope I can be as brave and strong as those in Britain were in WWII when their nation was under relentless attack. The memory of Britain's strength and resourcefulness is literally getting me through this hour-by-hour - I'm clinging to it. The British fought tooth and nail against every attack - and most importantly, stood together. The American forces came to fight in the European theater, supplying fresh equipment and many more brave and skillful troops years after the conflict had been dragging on, and so made their impact. But NEVER underestimate what the individuals who lived there did on their own to topple the Axis forces. My father was there and told me what he saw first-hand. And never forget, it was our own ass we were helping to save in that conflict, as much as anyone's. I'm a little too angry to write anymore right now. xxx ~R ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 22:29:15 +0100 From: "pam.harrison" Subject: Re: Alloy: RE: Retribution response Damien You are hurting, as we are all hurting but that does not justify hurting even more innocent people. > > We do not need to find out who was "exactly" > responsible Of course we need to know *exactly* who was responsible - it is only by knowing them that their paymasters/educators will be known. To lash out blindly at nation or nations on the assumption that they are responsible would simply exacerbate the situation - escalating into World War by simply looking for revenge, Surely you, an intelligent person, would not wish all those who died on Tuesday to have such a memorial. > > Their response to this act showed the entire world > > that they are barbarians and savages and celebrate > human suffering Look again at those pictures Damien - what struck me about the film of 'celebrations' in the Arab world was that the majority of those making the noise WERE children - there were a few adults inciting them but the majority were children doing what all children, the world over, do - acting up for the cameras. Would you be willing to go there and put a gun to each child's head and pull the trigger - I doubt it. It's easy to ask someone else to do the dirty work and drop a bomb - that way you don't have to look in the face of the person you are killing - you can say 'it wasn't me'. > > Julie and I tried to get our infant son Matthew to > put the animal shaped > > blocks through the animal shaped holes in the > little toy box. He watched us > > carefully as we showed him how they matched up and > that they were > > color-coded to further help him. He then looked > at us both and opened the > > hinged top of the box and proceeded to take > handfuls of animal blocks and > > stuff them into the box - and then shut the lid > and looked at us again as if > > to say "see?". It had a lasting effect. Sometimes it takes a child's outlook to teach us adults the truth. Do you really want Matthew to grow up in a world full of war and hate? > This solution is simple. *sigh* how I wish it was. > >We all know the one solution that will work. It's > > ugly and a last resort - but we are there now. > The only question is if we > > have the resolve to finish the job or not (my > symbolic "salt the earth" > > comment). Again the 'we' - relying on others to do the dirty work - revenge by remote control. > >War > > is horrible. And yet you advocate it? > >BUT the difference here is that we do not primarily > strike at > > them and other innocents, then hide in the shadows > and claim no > > responsibility for what we've done. We also > rebuild every country that we > > war against with tons of money and other aid and > install a government that > > ensures freedom (or at least one that was better > than before). War and > all > > that comes with it is an appropriate response to > defend against this > enemy. > > When we fought Germany and Japan we did not single > out only those in > command > > - we went to war against entire nations and > "fixed" the problem. We also > > did not ask the opinion of the rest of the world > before doing so. And > > aren't you glad. The Brits would be "enjoying" > living on the biggest > island > > in the German empire if it were not for American > "arrogance" and our "knee > > jerk reactions". The single best part of life in > England may have been > the > > German beer... - yes, really. At this point I shall ignore the rude, ill-informed and considerably insulting attitude and give you the benefit of the doubt due to grief. > If so the middle east would be the 51st state > and we would have control of the oil we need. We > are always careful not > to take the first step (the cold war ring a > bell????). Being timid in our responses has led to > this. I have lived through the aftermath of World War II, Suez, Korea, the Cuban Crisis, Vietnam, the Falklands, The Gulf, and every other conflict in this world in the last 50 years. The Cold War doesn't ring bells - it brings back the haunting fear of all-out war. I have seen the results of too many wars to ever want to see another one. I have heard the stories of my father and grandfather and uncles and cousin - all of whom have come under enemy fire. I have seen the eyes of the survivors and the horror in them, and I have seen the grave of my uncle who didn't survive. > Exactly. You make my point. Especially this type > of enemy who exists > across many borders. The aggressor sets the > "rules" and since there > aren't any rules I will not shed a tear for these or > those that help them. This is > a way of life for numerous countries and they are > making others suffer. Who > has the will and strength to make them stop? What > country has the single > best track record in this? If not us - who? If > not now - when? How many > more lives WILL finally justify a response that is > significant enough to > end this? Damien I weep only for you. Pam __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 20:03:37 -0400 From: Merujo Subject: Alloy: Step back and take a deep breath This is just my opinion, take it with the grain of salt it deserves. Emotions are, naturally, running high this week. We all respond differently to tragedy, especially when it is tragedy of evil human doing. I think it's time for everybody to take a step back. This week isn't the best time to remind Americans that their government has bankrolled people who became enemies. Not with thousands of fresh dead smouldering in a cement tomb and thousands more risking their lives to recover them. Nor is it ever a good time to belittle others' efforts in protecting their homelands in WWII. I'm really hesitating in what to write just now. I love the people here at Alloy. I'm frustrated a little right now, though. Cat Stevens, now Yusuf Islam, is someone who really pissed me off when he publicly supported the Fatwa against Salman Rushdie. I don't know if he has mellowed with age, or if he really understands Islam now, or if it's just a matter of him being like most humans, rational about somethings, irrational about others, but he has had this to say in part: "...it must be stated that no right thinking follower of Islam could possibly condone such an action: the Qur'an equates the murder of one innocent person with the murder of the whole of humanity..." Right thinking. There's a key there. Right thinking. And, of course, contradictory to views on Rushdie. Normal people are complex and often contradictory creatures. Extremist people aren't like normal people. They are simplier, less contradictory. They remind me of sharks, dolls eyes and dangerous single purpose, and a mind that cannot determine black from white from grey. The Taliban was born in the madrassahs (Islamic religious schools) of Pakistan a few years ago. Just like extremist Christian or extremist Jewish or extremist anything movements anywhere, you have to question, on a rational level, the "right-thinking-ness" of any extremist group. I remember a quote one of my officemates in Moscow had over her desk. I have no idea where it was from: "Avoid zealots. They are generally unpleasant." Today, I was horribly disturbed to read quotes from Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson, who, for our friends outside of the 'States, are ultra-conservative Christians (and let it be known that we have sane Conservatives here in Alloy, not like these guys.) Falwell said, and Robertson agreed, that the U.S. had this coming, and noted "I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way -- all of them who have tried to secularize America -- I point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen.'" Disgusting. Disgusting. And devisive as hell. It infuriates me to hear theoretically educated Americans blaming innocent Americans for this. It disgusts me like the Taliban whacking off hands and stripping women of their jobs and self-esteem and destroying ancient relics of another faith. It all smacks of ignorance. Sorry, I've digressed from where I wanted to be. Countries support people and regimes strategically. I understand that. I'd be willing to bet that, when England ruled the seas and had a vast provincial empire, that there was silent support of certain people and elements to maintain the desired balance of power. All superpowers in their day surely have done so. Did the U.S. government help create Bin Laden and Hussein? Probably. Sure. Did the U.S. government believe things would turn the way they have? Doubtful. I can't second guess the intelligence community. I'm not trained to. I do know enough to see that when the United States goes in to deal with a situation in recent times, there is an attempt to minimize civilian casualties. This is often difficult because rogue states seem more than happy to place civilians in harms way - it looks good on the news to have sobbing women crying over dead children - it stirs more anti-American sentiment. (Hiding military bases, etc., under schools and baby food factories is cowardly and foul.) That is not to say that civilian targets are not hit sometimes. And god knows I hope those are accidents. I've never tried to launch missles from a ship in the middle of the night. I'm not going to take a guess on that. I've said this before to Alloy. I've lived and traveled in the developing world. Human life has a different value there - it's primitive. It's sort of an "eh, well, we can breed ourselves some more!" attitude. I don't say that lightly. I've seen ambulance crews casually smoking cigarettes over the bleeding corpses of accident victims in Moscow. I've seen the cheap value of women in Uzbekistan, hospitals where the unwanted have tried to burn themselves to death. I could say more, but to what point. Like I said, it's primitive. I don't think Afganistan, under the Taliban, cares much about human life. If there was care for human life, the women trained as doctors and teachers would be working, caring for and educating the people, the children of Afganistan. Instead, they are wrapped in veils, deprived of the ability to use their skills and education. I can only imagine the horror of being a woman in Afganistan today. I have this vision of Bin Laden thinking of the World Trade Center murders as bowling a strike - all ten pins down. I'm sure the uneducated people around him are just puffed up and dancing around with weapons held high. It's vastly immature, but gets your attention. Extremism seems to me to be a form of arrested development and a horribly wrong cry for attention. I wonder if Osama Bin Laden killed animals as a child or had an unnaturally strong prediliction for onanism (I wonder similar things about Jerry Falwell, fyi.) I wonder if his parents were very ignorant, uneducated people - I have no idea when his family started to make money from oil. His ego must be huge. His name is everywhere. I have strong feelings that there is going to be a prolonged assault against Afganistan and the Taliban, a group that distresses much of the Arab/Islamic world, too. It's terrible that it's going to perpetuate a break between Islam and the rest of the world. Islam makes a lot of people nervous. Most people don't know much about it, and most people tend to be frightened of things they don't understand. I don't understand Islam. We have extremists all over America, in little pockets here and there. But so does EVERY country. I've seen it in the UK, Germany, France, Russia, you name it. However, these countries have rational leadership that helps guide toward right and the value of human life. Afganistan has no one holding onto that particular rudder. The Afgan opposition leader was slain the day before the attacks in New York and Washington. Coincidence? Who knows. I understand Damien's feelings about vengence very, very well. I will not hide the fact that I have a desire for retribution. I'm human. I can say no more. I can only pray that my country and its allies take the correct course for retribution, and, my friends, I cannot tell you what that course will be. While I think that Alloy is a wonderful place for intelligent discourse, please don't immediately take the tack of bashing America right now. You have to remember that America is a country with a vast population. We choose our leadership as best we can, and we pray they lead us well. We are a favorite whipping boy for international wrongs, yet we don't get jack shit in praise when we go in to police ugly situations like the Balkans or provide millions of dollars of support for disaster. That, apparently, is just expected of us. The most rational of people are not feeling very charitable right now. And you have to understand that, when the United States government has not taken ANY action yet to move against the forces behind these hideous acts, to read some well-meant preemtive posts from friends abroad... well, it feels like a slap in the face. My thoughtful mind understands where Alloyites from abroad are coming from, but I cannot process that now. We'll be more rational when time provides perspective. But we don't have that luxury right now. I haven't seen my sister since my mother's funeral. She was supposed to come visit me this weekend, but, with all this happening, she doesn't want to fly again (I don't blame her) and National Airport isn't even open to accept her flight. And I feel petty feeling bad about that when so many will never see loved ones again. Ever. On another note, Slarv mentioned aid and funding provided by people in the United States to help fuel the troubles in Northern Ireland. I am embarrassed as hell by that, personally, as an Irish-American. Mortified. The program where I work at the U.S. Department of Commerce has an intern training program for Northern Ireland and the Border Counties of Ireland - it's called AMBIT. I had the pleasure of hosting an AMBIT intern from Belfast a few years ago, before I worked at Commerce. Right now, my boss and another colleague are stuck in Belfast, not able to get a flight home. They went for meetings on AMBIT and another program Commerce has been fostering, called Community Leaders, which brings people from both ends of the spectrum together to try to find peace through economic and community development. I volunteered last week to create research documents for them to find funding on conflict resolution training for youth leaders, etc. And I've volunteered to help them write grants. It's not much, but it means something to me. And if I can mitigate anything for the wrong-minded individuals from my country that help perpetuate terrorism, I want to. Will it do much? I don't know. But I hope it helps. Very sincerely, Melissa __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ End of alloy-digest V6 #244 ***************************