From: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org (alloy-digest) To: alloy-digest@smoe.org Subject: alloy-digest V6 #243 Reply-To: alloy@smoe.org Sender: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "alloy-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. alloy-digest Friday, September 14 2001 Volume 06 : Number 243 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Alloy: Solidarity [CJMark@aol.com] Alloy: Sentiment [Robyn Moore ] Alloy: RE: Retribution [Damien Sweeney ] Re: Alloy: Retribution [Slarvibarglhee ] Re: Alloy: RE: Retribution ["Chris & Beena Cracknell" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 03:02:00 EDT From: CJMark@aol.com Subject: Re: Alloy: Solidarity Robin.. et al. I have to raise my voice in agreement with you. I have never in my life seen such a devastating, cruel and disgusting way for innocent lives to be taken from them. I'm sure there must be some method in the mind of a madman.. but fortunately.. I have not witnessed it. Unfortunately.. I witnessed this one. And I cannot in any way imagine finding glee in the deaths of others.. no matter what their political or religious beliefs. The images of Palistinians celebrating such sick events was especially angering to me.. With that kind of attitude about life.. it seems no surprise that they find themselves with nowhere to live. And although I am by nature very pacifist.. I sincerely hope that the designers of this carnage are quickly captured and very slowly stripped of their lives.. so that they may suffer longer. However.. I am very concerned about the fates of those that.. by chance of birth.. happen to be of Middle Eastern descent.. or have chosen to follow a belief that is common to that area of the world. These people are just as innocent as the ones in the buildings of the World Trade Center.. and we must help protect them just as we protect our own families.. because they are part of our family. I can only hope that the idiots that may try to lump all "them damn furrigners" together.. can be held back by people with saner minds and stronger arms.. so that we don't perpetuate the lunacy that has been so tragically thrust upon us. Though I don't pray.. I do send my thoughts and my care to all those who are suffering the loss of loved ones.. and those who may never know the true fate of others that were close. I feel at a loss for words to express my emotions as well as I'd like.. but I hope that you can all take a moment in the next few days and reflect on how fortunate you are to be able to do the simplest of things.. breathing.. walking.. listening.. seeing.. etc.. These are the important things in life. The rest is icing! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 01:58:51 -0700 From: Robyn Moore Subject: Alloy: Sentiment I just wanted to say I really care about you guys. When I first heard the news, my second thought (the first being my immediate family) was for the people on this list. Hoping that Melissa hadn't been caught in the DC chaos, desperately trying to remember where Robin's working these days, praying that none of our members or their loved ones were anywhere near the blast zone, wondering whether our UK members' lives are being disrupted by the no-fly zone and other security measures taken in London. I'm actually very shy, and generally think I don't fit in, which is part of the reason why I don't talk as much as I'd like to (the other is time - it tends to get away from me). However, over the years, I've come to consider you all as friends, and I wanted to say so before this chance slipped away. I'm hoping I don't sound too foolish, but events like yesterday's remind me that tomorrow may be too late. Robyn M @ Robyn Moore @ http://www.wiccans.net/robyn.html @ You knew the job was dangerous when you took it. - S.C. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 08:35:24 -0500 From: Damien Sweeney Subject: Alloy: RE: Retribution I wrote this yesterday and was going to keep it off of Alloy but it seems that I am more angry today than I was yesterday and Crackers post really hit home with me. I promise to return to lurk mode now - so thanks for letting me vent. Anyway - here is the opinion of one American... Damien Retribution - Damien J. Sweeney Every guilty deed Holds in itself the seed Of retribution and undying pain. - Henry Wadsworth Longfellow You'll have to excuse me but - they all look the same to me. Sitting on my couch watching horrific acts of violence I can't tell the difference between one terrorist group or another. If we find in the coming days that it was someone other than Osama Bin Ladin that did this then please insert the appropriate terrorist organization or country into this piece - it will read the same. For those who do not know, my parents live in Manhattan near the UN building and thankfully they are both fine. I called my mother after the second plane hit and talked to her for a few minutes - before the phone lines became unavailable. It was extremely troublesome to listen to my crying mother on the phone as she described America's greatest city being turned into a war zone with her in the middle of it and my father still at his office. After my first phone call no one else could get though on the phones but we got several E-mail messages from her describing what she saw: She counted 67 ambulances grid locked in traffic unable to help anyone, smoke everywhere, Navy and Air Force fighter planes in the sky, police boats, people coming into her building covered in ash and blood - everyone crying. Of course our first response must be to use all of our powers to rescue and care for people - all that goes without saying. That will happen with unmatched resolve that people have not seen since WWII. I am concerned about what comes next - our response to the terrorists. Every American in the past 200 plus years has contributed to making America the greatest country in the world. They have made America a world power - THE world Power. There have been many defining moments in our history that have contributed to this and the single greatest one was "The Dropping of The Bomb(s)". History revisionists and political correctness have seeped into this event but make no mistake - when we dropped the bomb and unleashed that level of warfare the entire world was watching and they sat bolt upright and understood the way things were - and they way they were going to be. The U.S. was already the leading world power, but we underlined that fact and made it extremely clear to all those who are too stupid (or too crazy) to understand subtlety. As the whole world watched we said in a very loud, clear voice "Do NOT #@%& with us!" That is what war is all about. Now, I am NOT calling for a nuclear strike on Afghanistan. A "war on terrorism" doesn't quite say it either. Let me be blunt: I am calling for profound, extreme acts of controlled rage aimed at those responsible for this. A response that the world has not yet seen. An American response. I am talking about a scorched earth, extreme over-reaction (if that is even possible). Osama Bin Ladin's head on a plate may be a good start but not nearly enough. Not enough to deter and send the message that needs to be sent. Those countries involved in harboring these terrorists still have training camps and supply depots for these diseased freaks and I believe that we know where most of them are. We have the best equipped army in the world and we should march across the earth and take out all of these installations. Every country had better roll out the red carpet and present these criminals to use the moment we reach their shores or pay the consequences. There is no neutrality in this, no gray area. Zero tolerance. We show up ready to destroy the terrorists and their allies - not to pick them up for trial. Countries who harbor these people should be given 24 hours to produce these terrorist leaders and destroy their camps completely (to our level of satisfaction) or else we will level their countries as we do it ourselves. If this means we destroy Afghanistan, so be it. Since your enemy always gets strong on what you leave behind, we leave nothing behind. After we obliterate everything that is theirs we salt the earth so that nothing can grow there. That is one monument I want the world to see. One which explains to all, in a very clear, loud voice, the serious way we protect the worlds greatest country and avenge the death of innocent Americans. We make it clear that each and every American life is worth far more than the life of any terrorist or those who assist them. This is the only way you deal with people who win the praises of their God and get to heaven by killing innocent people. I am certain that the site of the World Trade Center will be turned into a memorial of sorts - and probably rightfully so. But a small, growing piece of me wants us to rebuild the World Trade Center EXACTLY as it was before - perhaps even bigger and more grand than it was. That too can be a symbol of the innocent Americans that were lost there and a symbol of America once again. That's the other monument I want the world to see. Will my generation only be known for the 5000 Dow and the 200 Nasdaq? Or will we prove that when it really counts Americans are still Americans and willing to step up, lead the free world, and free it from evil once again? Once again the entire world is watching - I wonder what our response will be. Damien J. Sweeney President/CEO Network Professionals, Inc. ***To be removed from this list please respond to me and I will gladly remove your address from all future mailings.*** Damien J. Sweeney damien@touchedmonkey.com Touched Monkey.com Get Touched! www.touchedmonkey.com Social Commentary With A Conservative Twist Have You Been Touched Today? This E-Mail Copyright 2001 Touched Monkey.com __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 00:50:55 +0100 From: Slarvibarglhee Subject: Re: Alloy: Retribution This is difficult. And it may be unpopular. I'm struggling to make sense of all that's happened. I have a lot of contradictory feelings about it and about what should happen next. I don't have answers to the Middle East problems, I wish I did, but it seems that people a lot cleverer than me don't either. These are the thoughts that I've been mulling over. Firstly, my immediate concern was that no one I knew from Alloy, their friends or relatives had been killed or injured in the attacks. With so many casualties it's unlikely that no one on Alloy would know of someone caught up in them. I understand the desire for retribution, and I certainly agree that the guilty parties should be tracked down and brought to justice, assuming that it IS possible to find out exactly who was responsible. But don't be too quick to condemn the small number of people celebrating the murder and destruction in America. If you haven't lived how they've lived you have no experience of their perspective. As with most acts of terrorism, they are perpetrated by few, but many are assumed to be guilty by association. Similarly, the majority of ordinary people in Afghanistan probably just want to get on with their lives and want as little as possible to do with the Taleban regime. I have no doubt that there are extremists in the USA who'd like to see their 'enemies' bombed out of existence, but you wouldn't want the rest of the world to condemn all Americans because of the opinions of these few. The problems in the Middle East are extremely complicated and I can understand the frustration of those caught in the middle of it. Before you tell me that I have no idea what Americans are feeling right now, bear in mind that the IRA destroyed the centre of my home town only five years ago, and had their bomb detonated fifteen minutes earlier both my wife and daughter would have been killed, along with hundreds of others. The problems in Northern Ireland are complex and their origins date back many generations. Arguably England is reaping the rewards of its Irish policy that put Catholic families out of their homes and ensured that all the plumb jobs went to English Protestants. There are no simple solutions. If there were there would be no conflict in the Middle East and no IRA cells on the British mainland. While there is a lack of trust between nations, and a reluctance to compromise over their disagreements, there will be no lasting solutions. While parents still teach their children to hate from an early age, these problems will continue. 'Fragile' was a good title for the first message on this subject. The world is indeed a fragile place. The people of former Yugoslavia can testify to this. People who lived as good neighbours for years were killing each other within a few weeks, and all because their leaders gave them no option. Civilization quickly breaks down under such circumstances, but it takes much, much longer to repair that damage. So, don't be too quick to advocate a full scale military retaliation. Once you take the first step it's very hard to stop. The Russians learned that with all their resources and military supremacy they could not subjugate Afghanistan, and the US's experience in Vietnam should not be forgotten. It's extremely difficult to fight an enemy you can't see and who doesn't 'play by the rules.' Perhaps the underlying problem is that extremists are not rational. And I don't believe that they want peace at all. They use their grievances as an excuse for terrorism. Rather than targeting nations perhaps we should be targeting their fanatical leaders and ensuring that not only are they not able to wage terrorist campaigns against other countries, but they are unable to subjugate their own people. Easy to advocate, difficult to do. None of this excuses those who carried out the attacks in America this week. They should be caught and punished accordingly. However, there are dangers with this. Why was Saddam Hussain allowed to continue as leader of his country, when he is clearly a deranged, untrustworthy and extremely dangerous war criminal? Is it partly because to incarcerate or execute him would enrage his people and start another war? Better the devil you know? Should President Bush take the hard line and go in, all guns blazing? Already the news channels are saying that his administration will be judged on how it reacts to the attacks. So will his response be based on what's the best solution for all parties, or will it be based on what will win votes at the next election? What I dread seeing is an escalation which drags many nations into conflict, not least because I have a son who may well be conscripted into the armed forces if that happened. Ask any mother of a son who died in Vietnam, or any other war, if they think it was worth it before you advocate a military response. If the outcome is the same whether or not a military solution is tried, it would be better not to try it and not waste more lives unnecessarily. Sorry if this is rather a disjointed ramble, but like I said, it's difficult to make sense of it all. Bill ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:40:00 -0400 From: Robin Thurlow Subject: Re: Alloy: Retribution Thank you Bill, for your excellent letter. Slarvibarglhee wrote: > But don't be too quick to condemn the small number of people celebrating the > murder and destruction in America. If you haven't lived how they've lived > you have no experience of their perspective. As with most acts of > terrorism, they are perpetrated by few, but many are assumed to be guilty by > association. Similarly, the majority of ordinary people in Afghanistan probably > just want to get on with their lives and want as little as possible to do with > the Taleban regime. I have no doubt that there are extremists in the USA who'd > like to see their 'enemies' bombed out of existence, but you wouldn't want the > rest of the world to condemn all Americans because of the opinions of these few. This is true. Actually it seems Americans *are* all judged based on the actions of a few, on the international stage, which is of course every bit as unfair. But on the subject of terrorism & racism... when Timothy McVeigh (who considered himself to be a great and patriotic American) murdered so many people in Oklahoma City, there were not any hate campaigns in the US against white Protestant American men. The condemnation of everyone of Muslim faith or Middle Eastern ethnicity is patently wrong and obviously smacks of racism, which has no place in our society, nor on this List. > The problems in the Middle East are extremely complicated and I can understand > the frustration of those caught in the middle of it. Before you tell me that I > have no idea what Americans are feeling right now, bear in mind that the IRA > destroyed the centre of my home town only five years ago, and had their bomb > detonated fifteen minutes earlier both my wife and daughter would have been > killed, along with hundreds of others. The problems in Northern > Ireland are complex and their origins date back many generations. Arguably > England is reaping the rewards of its Irish policy that put Catholic families > out of their homes and ensured that all the plumb jobs went to English > Protestants. There are no simple solutions. If there were there would be no > conflict in the Middle East and no IRA cells on the British mainland. Bill, I'm very sorry to hear of this... I had never known that. It is very true that there are no easy solutions. And of course, this is not only an American problem we're now faced with. I feel pretty certain that everyone around the world is feeling the same horror, remembering terrorist attacks on their own soil. There were many people killed all at once here in this event, but it still comes down to the same exact situation as everywhere else... each was one distinct individual, with family & friends for whom life will never be the same. > While there is a lack of trust between nations, and a reluctance to > compromise over their disagreements, there will be no lasting solutions. While > parents still teach their children to hate from an early age, these problems > will continue. This is clearly true, and can be witnessed in any sort of racism. > So, don't be too quick to advocate a full scale military retaliation. Once you > take the first step it's very hard to stop. The Russians learned that with all > their resources and military supremacy they could not subjugate Afghanistan, and > the US's experience in Vietnam should not be forgotten. It's extremely > difficult to fight an enemy you can't see and who doesn't 'play by the rules.' I have been dreading this prospect all along, since once it's begun there may not be an end in sight... maybe not for years to come. > Perhaps the underlying problem is that extremists are not rational. And I don't > believe that they want peace at all. They use their grievances as an excuse for > terrorism. Rather than targeting nations perhaps we should be targeting > their fanatical leaders and ensuring that not only are they not able to wage > terrorist campaigns against other countries, but they are unable to subjugate > their own people. Easy to advocate, difficult to do. yes... because there is always someone even worse waiting in the wings to take the place of the fallen "martyr". > None of this excuses those who carried out the attacks in America this week. > They should be caught and punished accordingly. However, there are dangers with > this. Why was Saddam Hussain allowed to continue as leader of his country, when > he is clearly a deranged, untrustworthy and extremely dangerous war criminal? > Is it partly because to incarcerate or execute him would enrage his people and > start another war? Better the devil you know? > > Should President Bush take the hard line and go in, all guns blazing? Already > the news channels are saying that his administration will be judged on how it > reacts to the attacks. So will his response be based on what's the best solution > for all parties, or will it be based on what will win votes at the next > election? > > What I dread seeing is an escalation which drags many nations into conflict, not > least because I have a son who may well be conscripted into the armed forces if > that happened. Ask any mother of a son who died in Vietnam, or any other war, > if they think it was worth it before you advocate a military response. If the > outcome is the same whether or not a military solution is tried, it would be > better not to try it and not waste more lives unnecessarily. i am truly hoping this will not happen. i just want it to end swiftly with no further loss of life. I am really being unrealistic to the point of psychosis here, aren't I, but I suppose it's my form of desperate denial of everything that's happening. I pray my worst fears are never confirmed. > Sorry if this is rather a disjointed ramble, but like I said, it's difficult to > make sense of it all. it's an extremely well-written and thought-out post. It is extremely difficult to make sense of this, or even try to prepare ourselves for what may come/what we hope will not come. I can't even bring myself to really face it. I can't even think about watching or listening to the news without feeling sick and apprehensive. xxxxx Robin T ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:49:44 -0400 From: "Chris & Beena Cracknell" Subject: Re: Alloy: RE: Retribution What I think we will likely see come out of this in the long run is that we will see the formation of an international anti-terrorist organization. This coalition of nations will have a zero tolerance position on terrorism. Any terrorist strike against any treaty nation will be viewed as a strike against all treaty nations. There will be no distinctions made between the terrorists and nations that sponsor and/or harbour the terrorists. When evidence is presented to prove what terrorist group is responsible for an act and where they are then that country will be required to turn that terrorist group over. If they do not turn the terrorist group over then that will be considered an act of war against all treaty nations by that country at which point the coalition nations go to war against that country and the terms will then be unconditional surrender. The nation will be conquired and occupied and a democratic government will be set up. Basically it will be the same as what happened with Germany and Japan. Personally I think that's a better idea than the "salt the earth" option advocated for by some, otherwise you're simply demonstrating to these people that the USA is as evil as they claim it is. These terrorists cannot operate without countries to fund them and protect them. If you make these countries responsible for terrorist actions then pretty soon these terrorists will have no more safe harbours. The one thing the USA has to realize is that it can't keep starting wars it doesn't plan to finish. If they keep leaving people like Sadam Hussain in power then they're going to keep having problems. When they go to war with a nation they have to do what they did with Germany and Japan. They have to go in and force a complete surrender. They have to occupy that country, they have to install the type of government they want in that country and then, most importantly, they have to rebuild that country and improve the quality of life for its citizens. This is the only way you can turn these countries from enemies to allies. Crackers CrAB - http://www.hwcn.org/~ad329/crab.html The Official Bira Bira Webpage - http://birabira.chaosmagic.com Ghastly's Ghastly Comic - http://ghastly.keenspace.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:55:46 -0400 From: Merujo Subject: Alloy: A Dispatch from DC Hi, folks, Yesterday morning I drove to work along the C&O Canal, which runs along the Potomac River. The canal doesn't smell very good, so I always keep my car windows closed until I hit the edge of Georgetown, where I turn closer to the river, headed toward the White House, and, one block further, my office. As I hit Georgetown, the first thing I noticed was the army humvee tucked into a side street, directly next to the so-called "Exorcist Stairs" by the university. Black-bereted soldiers stood watch, rifles over their shoulders. I turned onto the Whitehurst Freeway and rolled down the windows. I wish I hadn't. All I could smell was burnt jet fuel, heavy in the air, nauseating, and the smell of charred building. I realized it was the Pentagon, which I could not see, hidden at that angle behind a grove of trees, still burning. I was so shocked that I almost drove into the retaining wall of the freeway. Last night, I could still taste the acrid air in my mouth. It made me so sick to think of it, I only slept an hour last night. This morning, it took me three hours to get to work (normally a half hour drive.) There were bomb threats called in all over town, causing havoc on rush hour streets. Early afternoon, I heard helicopters overhead, criss-crossing the Washington skies. That gave me the creeps, although radio and Internet reports said nothing about any activity downtown. Then, a co-worker, her eyes red-rimmed, told me that a close relative who works for a certain gov't agency had been told of a credible threat against the White House. Since my office is now separated from Main Commerce by several blocks, we don't get all information immediately. With our boss stuck in Northern Ireland on a business trip, unable to fly home, we decided to close down the office at 4:30. I drove out of the building garage to find the streets totally gridlocked - the security zone around the White House had been increased greatly. I found my office is now right at the edge. I was stuck in front of a firehouse for several minutes, watching the firemen who sat, grim-faced, at the front of their squad. Some of them just had their heads in their hands. Others paced. It took me 30 minutes to creep down one city block. At the edge, soldiers ate food heated in the back of their Jeep. When I got home, at 7:30, I turned on the tv news to hear that people had been arrested at New York airports, with knives and falsified documents, trying to get on LA-bound flights. I really don't want to go to work tomorrow. But, I feel like a real jerk writing that, thinking about the people going to work in New York and at the Pentagon, clearing rubble, digging out body parts, finding their dead friends. I cried at work today, door shut to my colleagues, listening to answering machine messages left by the doomed in New York and hearing the U.S. national anthem played at Buckingham Palace at the changing of the guards. Things will get better, but things will never be the same. With my best wishes to all, Melissa ------------------------------ End of alloy-digest V6 #243 ***************************