From: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org (alloy-digest) To: alloy-digest@smoe.org Subject: alloy-digest V6 #58 Reply-To: alloy@smoe.org Sender: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "alloy-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. alloy-digest Tuesday, March 6 2001 Volume 06 : Number 058 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Alloy: Re: alloy-digest V6 #56 ["Robin" ] Alloy: honest words ["Dave" ] Alloy: TO JULIE ["PAULO GONZALEZ" ] Alloy: Renaming Alloy! ["Diva" ] Re: Alloy: Renaming Alloy! [Robyn Moore ] Re: Alloy: Renaming Alloy! ["Robin" ] Re: Alloy: honest words ["Robin" ] Alloy: bounced messages ["Robin" ] Re: Alloy: Napster, Fever Pitch, and the Everlasting Gobstopper [Slarviba] RE: Alloy: A bit too harsh... [Damien Sweeney ] Re: Alloy: Napster, Fever Pitch, and the Everlasting Gobstopper [CJMark@a] Re: Alloy: A bit too harsh... ["Robin" ] Alloy: belated March calendar! ["Robin" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 01:56:18 -0500 From: "Robin" Subject: Re: Alloy: Re: alloy-digest V6 #56 - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Julie Sweeney" To: Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 9:13 PM Subject: Alloy: Re: alloy-digest V6 #56 > Well, excuse me while I disagree... if I were a new list member and received > the response Jon posted, I would feel attacked... Jon's email WAS nasty and > WAAAAAAYYYYY over the top, given the subject matter. LOL, and Damien's wasn't? LOL, LOL, LOL :) > I understand you > all feel strongly about this issue, but Paulo *asked a question*. Sure, he > may > have been a little plaintive in his request A little, as in trying to trample over someone else's personal rights of ownership and distribution of his work. This is *serious* business, you see. Becasue of my position both as manager of this list and as Thomas' friend I feel no sense of hesitation in expressing my views about this, strong though they may seem to some. > , but it was still just a > request. A need > for clarification. Not a demand, not getting something "at all costs". All costs, meaning all personal costs... don't you respect others' rights, or have any idea what it would be like to lose ownership of your own personal creative property? You must know how awful it is, as I believe you've told me you're a writer. Thomas certainly knows what it's like, having been through it with the record companies already and now facing the internet copyright situation we're all wrestling with. Do you know that Thomas can't even legally record his own previously-released songs, which he wrote and are his, and which he should have every right to, because of technical legalities with these same companies even to this day? The internet is a new forum for distributing work and I believe he may be testing the waters to see how well it goes, and looking to the Fever Pitch example for signs of hope. I'm sorry, but I will be damned if I go soft on anyone who asks people to go against Thomas' personal rights and wishes. People on this list whether they're new or have been here for ages would have gotten the exact same response as the one I gave Paulo (and I'm sure they'd have gotten the same from Jon as well) that such disrespect toward Thomas or toward any other member of Alloy absolutely cannot be tolerated. > In my > extremely > humble opinion, he deserves an apology. What a nice impression we all must > have > made on him. Frankly, I must say that I truly do stand by everything I have said and see no reason why we all can't just take our lumps from this discussion like big boys and girls. I really do think Paulo was out of line in making his request for Alloy members to defy Thomas' rights, and nothing anyone has said in response to it was anywhere near as "out of line" as the initial request was in my own very humble opinion (speaking of outlandish first impressions - !). Mind you, of course my humble opinion is one of many & if people disagree (as many of you do) I am cool with that & don't expect an apology for any of the over-the-top things that were said about me - and there have been many, even over and above the ones expressed in this debate! :) Another note off into the void, xxxxx Robin T ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 03:08:22 -0500 From: "Dave" Subject: Alloy: honest words Hi all....been years...literally... since I posted. I'm Robin's evil, hunchbacked, candid, twin (translate as husband). But this copyright/feverpitch thing has me thirsting for blood so I just have to post. (disclaimer: Robin and I are two different people. If I say something that makes you wish I were in a deep deep hole far away please don't blame her) Obviously it's wrong to distribute an artist's work against their wishes. Obviously most people could not care less so I won't argue. I want to say something else. A bit of brutal honesty. The majority of people, (especially the middle class over educated crowd who haven't had to work for much) think they should be able to get stuff for free. They don't care if it's right or wrong. They want it, they take it if they can. The only thing stopping them is the police and that only works sometimes. That doesn't bother me. What bothers me is that people deny it, and they scream bloody murder when it's their own stuff that gets stolen. In other words, most human beings are leeches who really only care about themselves. I was particularly impressed that only a handful of the people who downloaded Thomas' Feverpitch file bothered sending a cent to Warchild. It really drove home the truth of human nature (not that it needed anymore driving). Everyone would nod in agreement if I said "well this kid's mom's head was stuck on a pike in her front lawn and then the little tyke was starved and molested for a few months in a camp, we should help". But given the chance to help...and don't dare tell me you can't afford to because I will have to come to your house and slap you ...so many of you didn't. Pathetic. So with that in mind it makes me a little ill to hear all this bickering over "I missed the file". I say this...and then I'll leave for another few years... Whenever I read a post about this file (which I really enjoyed and do honestly hope get's posted again someday) I think of a bunch of kids who have been through a war. They have problems. You who need that file oh so badly...get your priorities straight. Have a good one all, Dave Thurlow ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 10:13:37 -0300 From: "PAULO GONZALEZ" Subject: Alloy: TO JULIE TO JULIE: Thanks again for your words Julie. There's no need for excuses as you suggested in the your message. But anyway, thank you very very much for your attention, kindness and for taking time to write! TO EVERYBODY: I already said this, but I will say it again: I just want to make clear to everybody that it wasn't my intention to hurt Thomas Dolby's copyrights. I just thought that as the soundtrack was available to everybody at alloy and since I have missed it, then it would be no problem if someone e-mail it to me, so I could get the chance to listen to it. I wasn't trying to have it at "all costs" as Jon said. I was trying to have it through e-mail only. I would not feel good if I tried to steal Dolby's rights, simply because of the fact that I love his music. If we love something or somebody, you do whatever you can to please the person, not to go against him or her. I asked that because I thought there would be no problem about it, since it was free to download, through Thomas's own initiative. TO ROBIN AND ALL WHO FLAMED ME: Ok Ok, I UNDERSTOOD all your e-mails and flaming. So let's stop talking about this episode and concentrate in other subjects more interesting. For my part, this is the last time I talk about all this. TO JON Yes I am inexperienced. As I said before, I only got a computer in the end of 2.000. Bye to all Paulo THANK YOU AGAIN JULIE!! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 15:34:37 -0000 From: "Diva" Subject: Alloy: Renaming Alloy! Unless Robin is prepared to change the name of this list to Fight Club, may I suggest that we agree to disagree on the issues of copyright and the leechiness or otherwise of the human race, and get back to talking about Thomas Dolby? Let's start with something nice and safe: who here would be willing to join me in kidnapping Thomas and forcing him to play live again? Do you think he would cost much to feed? With tongue very firmly in cheek, diva@tn.prestel.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 09:04:01 -0800 From: Robyn Moore Subject: Re: Alloy: Renaming Alloy! At 07:34 2001.03.05, you wrote: >Let's start with something nice and safe: who here would be willing to join >me in kidnapping Thomas and forcing him to play live again? Do you think he >would cost much to feed? > >With tongue very firmly in cheek, Actually, we established a couple years ago that the best method was to bribe his kids. Unfortunately, we don't have the kind of resources Disney does. ;) Robyn M @ Robyn Moore @ http://www.wiccans.net/robyn.html @ You knew the job was dangerous when you took it. - S.C. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:12:04 -0500 From: "Robin" Subject: Re: Alloy: Renaming Alloy! LOL! - understood, Diva :) Our polarization over this is a matter of different worlds colliding, but I have to say I've found it fascinating to hear *everyone's* views on this. I hope others have too. I still like to think of Alloy as a safe place to express oneself honestly about things we care about, and that even when things get lively there is still a sense of community here. And given the subject matter of this whole debate, it's probably been pretty interesting for Thomas to read as well! As always, thanks everyone for being patient while a volatile subject was tossed about. xxxxxx Robin T Diva wrote: > Unless Robin is prepared to change the name of this list to Fight Club, may > I suggest that we agree to disagree on the issues of copyright and the > leechiness or otherwise of the human race, and get back to talking about > Thomas Dolby? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:31:52 -0500 From: "Robin" Subject: Re: Alloy: honest words My husband is yet another of us who becomes impassioned when a topic of interest comes up, and he writes very 'vividly'...! Just read his post... wow... He fully understands there's to be no slapping!!! on Alloy... please take his turn of phrase with a big grain of salt, more like a salt-lick in this case. xxxxxxx Robin T ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 14:29:44 -0500 From: "Robin" Subject: Alloy: bounced messages A couple of messages have been bounced to me because they contained certain vocabulary words which some Alloy members' computer servers will filter out! The generated message says it's because it may mark it out as a virus... (??) Anyway, please continue to express yourselves as you wish but if you want to be sure your messages, and the digests, get through to everyone, you may have to add a few decorative touches to such words. As in my creative alteration of crackers' recent statement (from the message that was bounced): "F*ck I really hate computers sometimes." Meanwhile, mysteriously, all those cries of 'tough shit' that've been going back & forth have not been bounced at all, which leads me to believe it's meant as a filter for pornographic mail, and not viruses? Very mysterious. Anyway, something to keep in mind when posting. xxxxx Robin T ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 23:13:40 +0000 From: Slarvibarglhee Subject: Re: Alloy: Napster, Fever Pitch, and the Everlasting Gobstopper Deary me. I don't read my mail for a couple of days and all hell breaks loose. I tend not to read my mail at week-ends, for reason I won't bore you with, but when I collected my mail today I was flabbergasted. Perhaps reading the whole lot in one go allowed me to establish some perspective on what happened and 'what went wrong,' on a mailing list that us usually fairly flame free. I won't go over the whole thing again, as I think enough has been said, but I WILL make one suggestion. If a new subscriber asks for bootleg copies of Thomas' work, or makes some other request which is inappropriate, can we please leave it to Robin to respond in her capacity as list moderator, maybe privately. We don't need to be rude to new subscribers and we don't need to bombard them with our individual rants. It's not good for the blood pressure for one thing and it's not good manners for another. Slarv (Trying to employ the 4C's i.e. clear, concise, complete, correct.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 18:05:29 -0600 From: Damien Sweeney Subject: RE: Alloy: A bit too harsh... >I'd also assumed folks here would know by now that I wouldn't say anything >about Thomas or his work without getting it straight from the man himself. >xxxxx >Robin T > >... >Me too! Let's go. I'm tired of all this nauseating respect for artists... >and I gotta tell you, all the *incest* on this list is really getting me >down. Robin, Your integrity on the list was never in question. I sincerely hope that you do not take a sabbatical because you are doing a good job with the list. As for my "incest" comment... well perhaps that word was a bit harsh. I just wanted to see a new member treated better. I simply meant that I feel that most lists that I have seen (and especially the ones that I am on) could always benefit from a little fresh blood in the gene pool (new members). This, as opposed to fresh blood spilled in the posts! I mean, the more people that experience Thomas Dolby and his work the better - right? Damien ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 19:16:48 EST From: CJMark@aol.com Subject: Re: Alloy: Napster, Fever Pitch, and the Everlasting Gobstopper May I second Slarv's motion! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 20:24:47 -0500 From: "Robin" Subject: Re: Alloy: A bit too harsh... - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Damien Sweeney" > Robin, > > Your integrity on the list was never in question. I sincerely > hope that you do not take a sabbatical because you are doing a > good job with the list. Thanks Damien, I really appreciate your encouraging words. Sorry about the exceedingly silly tone of that particular post BTW, everyone... but by that point in the evening, with the discussion taking so many turns that the initial point of it all seemed lost completely, my managerial manners flatlined and I took a little bender into irony. Mostly I was trying to get Melissa to laugh at it all, see the silliness of it, and not leave us! > As for my "incest" comment... well perhaps that word was a bit > harsh. I just wanted to see a new member treated better. I > simply meant that I feel that most lists that I have seen (and > especially the ones that I am on) could always benefit from a > little fresh blood in the gene pool (new members). This, as > opposed to fresh blood spilled in the posts! I mean, the more > people that experience Thomas Dolby and his work the better > - right? > I understand completely, and as you'll recall (it's in the archives anyway) I did indeed welcome Paulo when he first signed on. And when the topic of the music file came up, I explained the situation, in what I hoped were helpful and optimistic terms - and that he'd still have a chance to hear it if Thomas re-released it, which was very likely given Thomas' generosity toward his fans. I always love welcoming new members and hearing of other avid fans wanting to collect Thomas' work - but of course, as I'm sure we would all agree, this should never at the expense of Thomas himself, and I'd be a very bad list manager among other things if I didn't try to correct/redirect people who cross the line where Thomas' personal rights are concerned. And believe me, I would do this no matter whether the person were a new member or one who'd been with us for years. As for new members feeling like it's hard getting involved in the conversations... Alloy has about 90 members and only about six of us ever post! Sometimes it's just me, posting by myself, for weeks. Maybe it's the echo they find distracting? (just kidding) I'd really love it if more people posted and joined in but I also understand how busy everyone is... I think most people want to hear news when it comes up and tune in for the occasional excitement, a la this past weekend :) Anyway Damien, thanks for taking the time to write & I'm glad it looks like things are becoming peaceful once more. As for Slarvi's suggestion, I'd always be happy to address any situation off-list where possible. I'd actually been hoping to do this one off-list before it even began, as I'd anticipated such a problem coming about... but the way it developed it was sort of an inherently 'on-list' problem anyway. xxxxx Robin T ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 22:04:21 -0500 From: "Robin" Subject: Alloy: belated March calendar! I've just finally gotten the March edition of the Alloy calendar published at the following link: http://www.robinthurlow.addr.com/AlloyCalendarMarch2001.htm The image is from a set of concert photos I've just come by.. can anyone tell me which show/tour/year they think this might be? I can elaborate on my caption if I know a bit more about the images (I'll gladly post more if anyone would like to see them, they're very good) As you'll notice in the Thomas Watch for today, Thomas was in Austria for the Nokia conference - I'm sure it went wonderfully! xxxxx Robin ------------------------------ End of alloy-digest V6 #58 **************************