From: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org (alloy-digest) To: alloy-digest@smoe.org Subject: alloy-digest V5 #289 Reply-To: alloy@smoe.org Sender: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "alloy-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. alloy-digest Friday, December 1 2000 Volume 05 : Number 289 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Alloy: El Presidente & Gothique [robb & tara ] Alloy: OT Republican exception-taking ["Julie Sweeney" ] Re: Alloy: I'm a hopeless pretender - so what about you ? ["Jon Drukman"] Re: Alloy: The ultimate sacrifice for democracy. [Slarvibarglhee Subject: Alloy: El Presidente & Gothique A reply to: > Tara and Robb, I mostly agree with what you said about it officially being out of our hands, however, the legal wrangling could still change things around 180 degrees at any given time. It still consumes and fascinates me. So, I apologize if anyone thinks this is going on too long. Treading lightly so as not to totally offend everybody, I still enjoy the back & forth. If I could fix the thing tomorrow I would make it happen tonight. Since I can't, it seems like coping mechanisms are the current mode. Lucky for me I have a sounding board of friends. Although, maybe not so lucky for you!! Oh, no offense taken. It just so much as background noise to me. But after a while, even the jungle sounds can get to you. I believe the legal wrangling should be left to the lawyers in this case, and not the media. In fact, I want several things to be passed immediately, no matter who the prez is: campaign finance reform, as in, no money from the tax base to run for president; outlaw media presence and broadcast in these elections, as to have no bearing on the outcome. and on and on. and a reply to: > Robb, I almost forgot: Gothic on DVD at Amazon.com... $21 bucks! If you mean strictly audio CD, I don't see it there. (Didn't even know such an animal existed, actually..) I'm looking for the audio CD. But you just gave me an idea: what if the Gothic DVD 'extras' like they stick on there, is the soundtrack? I'll have to look into it! I don't have a DVD player, but I've actually bought a few DVD's, since it seems things are going that way. Plus I'm getting an iMac.... ~robb ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 08:15:20 -0600 From: "Julie Sweeney" Subject: Alloy: OT Republican exception-taking > ~ This is *scary*. People who don't agree with this narrow representation of > the Republican view are being cast by the writer as some class of 'subhuman' - > dishonest, dirty, desperate, disrespectful (of what/whom??), morally-void > (!!!), and trying to destroy the country..? Does this remind you of > anything? Germany, 1930's... Her line of argument against non-Republicans > via verbal dehumanization is horrifying to me. I hope the author of this > essay represents the exception and not the rule of Republican party > philosophy. Can we please, please, please dispense with the comparisons to Hitler? Of course that kind of sentiment is an exception, and I find these fascist characterizations that have been floating around lately are as deeply offensive as you find her "verbal dehumanization", Robin. She is only referring to Democrat politicians, pundits, advisers, lawyers, etc. whose tactics and rhetoric are questionable, not to the ordinary Joe or Jane who's stuck watching the whole thing unfold on tv. > > "To those elected officials who are calling recounts and pulling strings > wherever they can in order to get Gore into office... " > ~ The Democrats have been pushing for a count of ALL of the votes cast, yes? > This includes the ones for Bush. Bush is still coming out ahead so far in the > recounts, which is fine. The point is to have the votes counted accurately. > This is what has been said all along. It doesn't matter who wins the election > as long as it's really the will of the people (or as close as can be > estimated) Personally I'm not pushing for anyone, I just want it to be the > truth. No, the point isn't to count all the votes... dare I even bring up the military votes? I'm struck by the fact that no one has mentioned these yet in this discussion, even though I have seen a fair amount of support and respect for American soldiers here on this list. At this point I invite other opinions on this subject. > > "This is not as impossible as the elitist Democrats have intimidated us into > believing. If enough just wake up from their fatalistic > discouragement-induced lethargy and fight back, we could save our nation. A > great deal is at stake here, and we must fight back with passion and > perseverance to save this "Republic, for which we stand." > ~ Now we've added elitist, fatalistic, and lethargic to our list of dishonest, > dirty, desperate, disrespectful, morally-void, and trying to destroy the > country. Anyway, where does this 'elitist' thing come from? Last time I > checked, us non-Republicans are the guys in the grungy clothes working our > rear-ends off trying to make an honest living against all odds. > I beg your pardon, but then who do you think Republicans are? Gee, I think we work pretty hard too. Or are we the 1%? I remember working pretty damn hard "against all odds" to make "an honest living" when D & I started our company 9 years ago, with a new mortgage and a new baby, sacrificing sleep and other essentials to make a go of it. Hell, D even sacrificed some of his stomach lining!! I certainly hope you don't buy into that vicious class warfare rhetoric that's been spouted, because that's just about the worst and most divisive thing that happened this campaign year. > To answer some of your questions, while I'm no expert on Republican party > platform, I believe most of them are not heartless zealots. I think a lot > of them are scared, and aren't skilled at either debate or protesting. I > can answer one of your questions though, the one about "elitists." > Republicans disdain the rich and powerful Democrats that feign knowledge > of ... um, put it this way. The dichotomy of > the powerful one claiming to embrace public education and espousing all > its glories, yet sending his kids to high priced private ones. See what > I'm getting at? Claiming you're safer if he makes it illegal for you to > carry a self-defense weapon, at the same time running around everywhere > with armed bodyguards. That case was made famous with Rosie. In the case > of politicians, those bodyguards are paid for with the peoples' public > money, adding insult to injury. That's the sort of thing they mean by > elitist.. not blue-collar workers or the public servants with hearts of > gold. There are plenty of those in both parties. :) Thank you, Elaine. These are excellent examples. As to us being scared, sure we are, just like anyone else out there who voted, and is watching the thing in Florida be tweaked to death. We feel powerless to do anything about it, and horrified at what's happening right before our eyes. > > I also fear I must sound kind of wimpy about it all.. but for some reason > I'm really torn up. I haven't been sleeping well, feel guilty about > asking my 3-year-old to "let me hear the news" for three weeks, and > generally can't shake the ominous feeling that seems to be growing inside > my head. > Oh, I don't know, Elaine. D & I feel exactly the same way, and I've talked to a lot of people who are really torn up about this. I know for the first week or so, my dad said his whole office was sort of wandering around looking for news. I think a lot of people have trouble concentrating when this thing has been changing hourly, sometimes. This is something we all count on being there.... a solid Republic, a solid election process, knowing who's in charge, knowing the "rule of law" will win out. We're used to being the country that has it all together. Not having that in place is deeply upsetting; plus all of this is setting a precedent, and there's no going back. By the way, have you (all of you Alloids) been watching the stock market through all of this? Bet Thomas is glad he delayed his IPO!!! Sorry I get so upset... going to go get my morning news fix. Julie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 14:19:02 +0000 From: "Tim Hudson" Subject: Alloy: The ultimate sacrifice for democracy. Hi, THIS IS OFF MESSAGE BUT PLEASE READ IT...... To see some dramatic colour photos of the American military cemetary here in Luxembourg - visit the site below and go to the option at the bottom of the page marked 'Download Booklet with pictures (1.1 M - takes about 10 minutes)'. It took me 4 minutes. Some selected stats of the breakdown of those buried here is as follows By State letters PA 584 NY 579 IL 380 OH 307 MI 271 MA 240 NJ 227 CA 211 IN 159 TX 153 MO 144 WI 143 80th Infantry Division 504 5th Infantry Division 418 94th Infantry Division 410 26th Infantry Division 319 90th Infantry Division 292 76th Infantry Division 272 28th Infantry Division 163 4th Infantry Division 159 10th Armored Division 186 4th Armored Division 165 6th Armored Division 160 101st Airbourne 227 The above are just a few statistics SELECTED statistics from the 5 thousand or so buried here. Incidentally, another 5000 Dead American soldiers were and I qoute 'Trucked to Antwerp for shipping to the United States'. So there was at one time 10000 here in this cemetary - still a small proportion of the seventy thousand who died fighting the half a million German Troops, who pushed through The Ardennes in the Battle of the Bulge on DECEMBER 19th 1944. 56 years ago almost to the day. PLEASE DONT THINK I AM A NUTTER OR A WAR FREAK I AM NOT !! BUT when I hear about the fight for Democracy in America and my fellow Europeans talking about the Fight for power in Europe how can I close my eyes to the evidence all around me of a darker time in our parents generation. Please - visit the site below - take five minutes to download the booklet with the colour pictures - it wont take 10 - and remember no matter how much of a mess it might seem in the USA and Europe right now, for a different generation it was much worse. Christmas time is the aniversary of the death of the majority of these people and we should remember them. As we should all victims of war. DEMOCRACY - FOR ALL ITS FAULTS IS BETTER THAN WHAT YOU WILL SEE BELOW. I stood there this lunchtime. Down load the booklet. See it yourselves. http://www.abmc.gov/lx.htm 4 minutes of your time - They gave their lives. USA Foriegn policy does matter. Incidentally two presidents of America have visited here both while they were Vice presidents. One was Lyndon B. Johnson in 1963 [I was born 1/1/63] and the other was in 1984 a certain person called GEORGE W. BUSH. Last year Mrs Albright delayed her flight from here to visit it too. - -- Tim Hudson tim_hudson@zdnetonebox.com - email ___________________________________________________________________ To get your own FREE ZDNet Onebox - FREE voicemail, email, and fax, all in one place - sign up today at http://www.zdnetonebox.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 15:43:52 +0000 From: "Tim Hudson" Subject: Alloy: I'm a hopeless pretender - so what about you ? Hi again, Although it must sound like it - I am not 'into the war'. Actually I 'm into recording studios. I am just struggling to get to grips with a new digital 6 band mastering dynamics processor which I got last week so if anyone wants to discuss recording studios, outboard, mixing desks and production technique techniques..... This is the reason why I am here really ......on this list that is...... Its because I admire the production and arrangement skills of Mr Dolby. Not only is he a great artist with a brilliantly broad and imaginative musical pallette.....[I once saw someone remark that he could sing a bit too!!]...but on a technical level I think he is an absolute genius. Why? Because in his mixes nothing swamps anything else out. This is more than just good arrangement its also a question of an amazingly good application of EQ and dynamics, delays and reverbs. My Music's crap. I can write a 'song' quite quickly and get a grove going but it always ends up a wall of competing noises struggling for supremacy....drowning in a mix of competing ideas....... I think my basic problem is that I dont take enough time to arrange the sounds properly - I just keep building them all up on top of each other and it ends up a mess! Oh - and I really cant sing at all......Its dreadfull! After many hours of meanial 'maintenance' tasks [ Ive discovered just the right nozzle for my vacuum cleaner which lets me hoover my mixing desk] theres nothing so inspiring as to sit back with my headphones on look up at the moon sailing from right to left over the tops of the Luxembourg city listening to Tom drop in those lush 'Screen Kiss' lyrics or the mix build up on 'I love you goodbye......' Often I'm terribly envious thinking He probablly had all the Outboard in Bruxelles to do that (Screen Kiss) and I look at my equipment rack with its worn out ALESIS MIDIVERB II's with shame....[ mind he didn't have those when he recorded The Flat Earth.....]but mostly i just give in to the night and listen...... Which is why my recent purchase of the 12 x 12 original remixes CD has been such a joy. I can at last get a clue to some of the other things that were left out of the original versions. I can also see some bits which possibly were new additions... One of my favourite bits on 12 x 12 is the extended 'sequenced'- in the old fashioned sence of the word sequenced pre Steinberg pro24, Cubase, ProTools era - bit in 'Flying North' its like an ARP arpegiator type bubbly fizzy thing in a dreamy stretched bit about two thirds the way into the track...... stunning....! Oh and the quality of that waveform sound used a few times at the beginning of Windpower. Impossible to describe. The remix of Dissidents - the search for the truth etc......also flaws me. Perhaps Andy J's new Russian contact could decipher the russian there too as I think there is some extra bits on that version? There again.......I thought it was return to 'Albury' not Mulberry on Cloudburst so what the hell do I know anyway ? :-) Can I suggest that if ever TMDR does make some new recordings he videos some of the process as I would love to see how he composes and arranges his ideas. How he tracks the stuff and how he builds the mix. He must have a modus operandii - but what on earth is it ?!!! I know from years of trying - that each of those knobs takes ages to set and without anything flash like 'total recall' I can only work on one track at a time. If anyone has a spare SSL G series desk or an old NEVE lying around that they'd like to donate....I know a good home.... Oh MR Dolby - how you make it all sound so effortless... The ability to swing indeed. But it dont come cheap! At 37 Its dawning on me - I'll always be a pretender....and thats both pathetic and sad! Still - I'm having fun. Any other wannabee producers / loosers out there? This music thing is a terrible thing - when its in you it consumes you even to the point of carrying on when your too ashamed to play your stuff to anyone else !! Should I give up ? Yes of course. Will I? Probably not! :-) Mon dieu! - -- Tim Hudson tim_hudson@zdnetonebox.com - email ___________________________________________________________________ To get your own FREE ZDNet Onebox - FREE voicemail, email, and fax, all in one place - sign up today at http://www.zdnetonebox.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 11:20:00 -0500 From: Robin Thurlow Subject: Re: Alloy: Dolby cover band (was: Presidential Banter) robb & tara wrote: > Anyone in the Upstate New York wanna start a Dolby cover band with myself and a partner? I was looking for people to play with when we first moved here from Boston a couple of years ago, but now my wrist has given out & I've had to call it quits on cello for the time being. Besides which, I've managed to become so busy with various visual projects that there would be no time to adequately focus on music right now. It would be fun though, and I really miss playing. Good luck with your band... (and finding Gothic!) Robin T ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 12:13:37 -0500 From: Robin Thurlow Subject: Re: Alloy: OT Republican exception-taking Julie Sweeney wrote: > Can we please, please, please dispense with the comparisons to Hitler? Of > course > that kind of sentiment is an exception, and I find these fascist > characterizations that have > been floating around lately are as deeply offensive as you find her "verbal > dehumanization", > Robin. She is only referring to Democrat politicians, pundits, advisers, > lawyers, etc. whose > tactics and rhetoric are questionable, not to the ordinary Joe or Jane who's > stuck watching the whole thing unfold on tv. I had no was of knowing the intent of the writer, because she didn't make herself clear on this at all in the essay (and as Elaine pointed out, the essay was found on a site which would have put it in context, but here it was on its own) And I make no comparison of anyone to Hitler; I do compare the casting of any one group of people as inherently low, mean, lazy, and destructive, as extremely dangerous, particularly when being put forth in any kind of political forum. People have to watch themselves when making any kind of characterizations about *any* group, and be very clear in their meaning. I don't know what the general sentiment is right now, which is why I hoped most people didn't think along these lines. The example I gave of 1930s Germany is the most well-documented account of what can happen when this goes unchecked, and which was directly related to derogatory propaganda about a group of people. This doesn't mean I think all republicans are fascist though (I haven't heard this accusation being made, but this blanket accusation is not right to be making either!) There are people out there in the republican party who have extremely good ideas, I think - same as in the democratic party - while there are others in both parties who um.. don't. Same goes for the green party and all the others - don't mean to leave anyone out in the discussion, but the dems & pubs are the two groups that seem to be duking it out right now. > I beg your pardon, but then who do you think Republicans are? Gee, I think > we > work pretty hard too. Or are we the 1%? I remember working pretty damn hard > "against all odds" to make "an honest living" when D & I started our company > 9 years > ago, with a new mortgage and a new baby, sacrificing sleep and other > essentials to make > a go of it. Hell, D even sacrificed some of his stomach lining!! I was only reacting against the remark that democrats are somehow 'elitist', which I didn't understand, and seemed awfully inaccurate. My wording made it sound like I was contrasting democrats and republicans (as I see when i re-read it) but I definitely didn't mean that at all. Being honest and hard-working, and making sacrifices for our families and our futures, has nothing to do with political philosophy as far as I'm concerned. I'm sorry for insulting you with my badly written reaction! Robin T ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 16:01:56 -0500 (EST) From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Alloy: what's up in Barbville Hi all, Thanks for providing me with some interesting/distracting email over the Tgiving holiday here. I too have been intense about the election thing but it is getting harder and harder to discuss as the fickle public around me loses interest. So I was eager to read all the interesting opinions! My SO is living in England and from the questions he gets you would think he is personally responsible for the PB County voters, the Electoral College, and the overabundance of lawyers in the US. Unrelatedly, if you have access to the journal _Science_ or the magazine _Science News_, my moon rock article comes out tomorrow. I have been doing interviews all week long. It's tiring, exciting, terribly ego-inflating, and scary all at once. It's a hot scientific topic so we're trying to soak up all the press we can get while we can. Fuel for grants and all that. Since one interview was in Canada and one for a Brazilian newspaper, I can now say I'm an internationally-known scientist :) :) Now, ON-topic, I just got copies of the Live video AND the 2-CD Hyperactive!, which I hope contains the vinyl version of Windpower. That was the 1st version I heard and the one I memorized, and I want it back, dammit! :) Not that the other versions aren't brilliant, of course. I haven't had time to look at/listen to either, but I am so looking forward to it this weekend!! Also, I've never heard Puppet Theatre, so that ought to be a treat. I was thinking of making myself a nice dinner and curling up with the video, how pampering. No blood pudding though, please. Barbara Cohen, Lunatic University of Tennessee, Knoxville ************************************ Radioactive cats have 18 half-lives. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 15:07:49 -0800 From: "Jon Drukman" Subject: Re: Alloy: I'm a hopeless pretender - so what about you ? > Actually I 'm into recording studios. me too. just spent all morning reinstalling windows in order to get cubase to talk happily to my sound card again. took some hours and pain, but it's all better now. (except i can't get my monitor to go to 75hz without getting stuck in 640x480 permanently. yay windows!) > Often I'm terribly envious thinking He probablly had all the Outboard > in Bruxelles to do that (Screen Kiss) and I look at my equipment rack > with its worn out ALESIS MIDIVERB II's with shame....[ mind he didn't > have those when he recorded The Flat Earth.....]but mostly i just give > in to the night and listen...... yeah an alesis midiverb ii is not going to really give you a clean mix unfortunately. (i have one sitting in my rack but it hasn't been turned on in about 5 years). i do all my mixing now entirely within cubase. the sound quality is phenomenal. > Oh and the quality of that waveform sound used a few times at the beginning > of Windpower. Impossible to describe. i know exactly what sound you're talking about. i'm fairly sure it's a vocoder. > I know from years of trying - that each of those knobs takes ages to > set and without anything flash like 'total recall' I can only work on > one track at a time. yet another reason to go with the computer. your mix is saved with the song! i posted this url when i first signed on the list but on the chance you missed it, here's a track i did called "golden age" (no connection to mr dolby, except subconciously, and i suppose some of the synth sounds are not a million miles away from the golden age of wireless). http://pretension.com/jsd/golden.mp3 I played all the synth parts into Cubase, recorded them as audio files, then composed the bulk of the arrangement in Acid. A final trip through Cubase to add the vocals and some extra synth bits. This track is a more typical guitar/vocals production, done entirely within Cubase, except for a brief detour with Acid to get some drum loops at the right speed. http://www.pretension.com/jsd/quietone3.mp3 I was listening to a lot of Nine Inch Nails at the time, so there is some fairly heavy guitar :) - -jsd- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 23:24:03 +0000 From: Slarvibarglhee Subject: Re: Alloy: The ultimate sacrifice for democracy. Tim Hudson wrote: > Hi, > > THIS IS OFF MESSAGE BUT PLEASE READ IT...... > > PLEASE DONT THINK I AM A NUTTER OR A WAR FREAK I AM NOT !! > > BUT when I hear about the fight for Democracy in America and my fellow > Europeans talking about the Fight for power in Europe how can I close > my eyes to the evidence all around me of a darker time in our parents > generation. > And not just our parents' generation. Events of equal horror have been taking place in the former Yugoslavia, perhaps not on the same scale in terms of numbers, but that's no consolation to those who've been the victims of ethnic cleansing in the last few years. Indeed we DO need to keep a sense of perspective. The free world may not be completely free, but there are a lot of people who'd give their right arm for the kind of freedoms we enjoy. Slarv ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 00:00:59 +0000 From: Slarvibarglhee Subject: Re: Alloy: OT Republican exception-taking Robin Thurlow wrote: > > There are people out there in the republican party who > have extremely good ideas, I think - same as in the democratic party - > while there are others in both parties who um.. don't. Same goes for > the green party and all the others - don't mean to leave anyone out in > the discussion, but the dems & pubs are the two groups that seem to be > duking it out right now. > I'm probably talking out of turn here, but from my perspective Repulican and Democrat are just two labels for two political parties who don't appear a whole lot different from this side of the Atlantic. Having said that, there is very little to choose between Labour, Conservative and the Liberal Democrats in the UK. To a lot of us they're just different flavours of the same basic product. If you want someone with real alternative policies, you have to look to the smaller or independant parties, like the Greens. I have no doubt that ALL (well maybe not all, but the majority) of politicians go into politics because they want to improve the standard of living for their countrymen. It's only when they get elected that they find it's not as simple as they thought, and that a lot of big companies can bring a lot of pressure to bear, so they have to start to compromise. And once you start to compromise, it's easy to do it some more, and more, until you're a hell of a long way from where you set off from. I don't know if you will have seen the British comedy series 'Yes, Minister,' and 'Yes, Prime Minister' which were made a few years ago. A lot of politicians said it was very true to life. A minister wants to do 'X,' but the civil servants warn him of the consequences, the pressure groups tell him something else and he ends up doing 'Y' instead. I wouldn't be a politician if you paid me .... unless it was in unmarked bills, untaxed and regularly delivered in plain brown paper bags to my yacht moored in the Seychelles. Slarv ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 23:44:37 +0000 From: Slarvibarglhee Subject: Re: Alloy: I'm a hopeless pretender - so what about you ? Tim Hudson wrote: > Hi again, > > > > My Music's crap. I can write a 'song' quite quickly and get a grove > going but it always ends up a wall of competing noises struggling for > supremacy....drowning in a mix of competing ideas....... > > I think my basic problem is that I dont take enough time to arrange the > sounds properly - I just keep building them all up on top of each other > and it ends up a mess! > Don't know if this is any encouragement, but I was reading some articles about Allan Holdsworth last week, and he drives his co-musicians mad when they're recording together. He's NEVER satisfied with his work. He's always tweaking it a bit here, and a bit there, searching for perfection, but never feels he's achieved it. But the man's a genius. If I could play one hundredth as well as he can I'd be a happy man. I think music is like any other creative process. The creator knows what he or she wants, and always thinks they can do better. But the viewer or listener doesn't know what the creator intended, they judge on what they hear or see, and either like or don't like it. I tend to think of it like decorating. I hate decorating, but I can do a reasonable job. But when I put up wallpaper, I know where the pattern doesn't match, and where all the little bubbles are that I was unable to smooth out. However, when visitors come to the house, they see the end product as a whole. They don't go around examining all the joins and telling me where the pattern doesn't match. They either like the thing as a whole, or if their tase is different to mine, they may not be keen on it, but they never comment on my skills as a decorator. Also, as creator, you're too close to your creation to be objective about it. I feel sorry for musicians who constantly have to play their greatest hit(s) because the audience demand it, when they moved on long ago and are probably heartily sick of playing it/them. And sometimes this is how the artist feels as soon as they've finished a project. Green Gartside reportedly NEVER listened to 'Provision' after he left the studio on its completion. By the time it was finished he'd had enough of it. The decorating analogy may be hogwash, but that's how I feel about it. Where is this all leading? I think I'm trying to say you shouldn't be disheartened and try not to be too self critical. If you want some honest, non judgemental, opinions of your music, there are a few people here who'd be only too happy to give it. Slarv ------------------------------ End of alloy-digest V5 #289 ***************************