From: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org (alloy-digest) To: alloy-digest@smoe.org Subject: alloy-digest V5 #288 Reply-To: alloy@smoe.org Sender: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "alloy-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. alloy-digest Thursday, November 30 2000 Volume 05 : Number 288 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Alloy: message from beyond [Robin Thurlow ] Re: Alloy: re: more OT election/confusion! [Robin Thurlow ] Alloy: Re: alloy-digest V5 #287 ["Julie Sweeney" ] Re: Alloy: Election (OT) [Robin Thurlow ] Alloy: Re: alloy-digest V5 #287 ["Kathleen T. Presser" ] Alloy: OT: The Lathe Of Heaven ["Dennis S. Alexander" ] Alloy: Presidential Banter [robb & tara ] Re: Alloy: Election (OT) & Presidential Banter [Elaine Linstruth ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 01:48:46 -0500 From: Robin Thurlow Subject: Alloy: message from beyond well, I'm just going to dig myself a grave (I have one in Maine set aside for me) and get in. Will someone please fill it in for me? In a few weeks, bring lillies. Thanks! Robin T who just DIED after reading the thing that 19-year old wrote! LOL!!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 04:00:29 -0500 From: Robin Thurlow Subject: Re: Alloy: re: more OT election/confusion! Elaine Linstruth wrote: > I've decided to attach the following essay I found, which I think is quite > good, and was written by a 19-year-old girl, dated 11/21/2000. Please tell > me what you think of it. Elaine, I'm sorry I dropped dead :( I've recovered a bit now. Thank you for posting the essay, I really *do* appreciate your help. You're very kind. I apologise for my immediate reaction. The essay. The facts she presents are accurate at first, and quite informative... but only to a point. The author says: "...our Constitution is not, by any stretch of the imagination, a "living document." The constitution means exactly what it says and not what judges interpret its meaning to probably be..." ~ This is among the first of the problems. In fact, absolutely everything ever written is interpreted by whoever reads it, and applied to reality as they see fit. The Bible has been a classic case-in-point. (and hey, I get to fit in an *on-topic* thing here, our Song Interpretations for example!) And in fact, as far as I'm aware, the Constitution is indeed technically a living document, because of the many elastic clauses written in. her questions: "1.) How many of you only found out about the Electoral College due to this election?" ~ It was taught to us in school, but not covered very thoroughly & I never quite understood it - but every election year I learn a little bit more. "2.) If the situation were reversed, if Bush were ahead in the popular vote but Gore was about to win due to the Electoral College system, how many of you would be genuinely protesting the Electoral College now?" ~ I can't speak for anyone else, but personally, I wasn't protesting it, just trying to figure it out. "3.) How many of you would even care?" ~ Me! :) "4.) And finally, how many of you would be praising the Electoral College as part of the system that makes our country work, enabled Gore to win by law, and helps to truly represent the will of the People of our great Nation?" ~ I always praise any system that seems fair, and question any that seems confusing. In truth, if there were a Democratic majority in the House, the Senate, the Supreme Court, and the Presidential Office, I'd be just as freaked out by the imbalance of it. I think everyone in the country should be represented as fairly as possible. "...In conclusion, we must protect our Constitution, and in doing so, the integrity of our country, as well. To those who say that the Democrats are fighting dirty and we must fight back just as dirty, I say no! We must NOT, under any circumstances, sink to their level. It would only further erode the honest foundation of our country, and make us no better than them. We must fight back honestly, call them on Voter Fraud [http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_btl/20001106_xcbtl_voter_frau.shtml] harges, expose them for the desperate, disrespectful, and morally-void people that they are." ~ This is *scary*. People who don't agree with this narrow representation of the Republican view are being cast by the writer as some class of 'subhuman' - dishonest, dirty, desperate, disrespectful (of what/whom??), morally-void (!!!), and trying to destroy the country..? Does this remind you of anything? Germany, 1930's... Her line of argument against non-Republicans via verbal dehumanization is horrifying to me. I hope the author of this essay represents the exception and not the rule of Republican party philosophy. "To those elected officials who are calling recounts and pulling strings wherever they can in order to get Gore into office... " ~ The Democrats have been pushing for a count of ALL of the votes cast, yes? This includes the ones for Bush. Bush is still coming out ahead so far in the recounts, which is fine. The point is to have the votes counted accurately. This is what has been said all along. It doesn't matter who wins the election as long as it's really the will of the people (or as close as can be estimated) Personally I'm not pushing for anyone, I just want it to be the truth. "we must all band together to reach up and bite them in their collective @$$, reminding them that they are NOT the ruling class of this nation." ~ Didn't she just speak out against mob mentality earlier in her essay? Er... does this mean she thinks that the Republicans *are* this so-called 'ruling class' (didn't know there was one, but...)? oh dear... "This is not as impossible as the elitist Democrats have intimidated us into believing. If enough just wake up from their fatalistic discouragement-induced lethargy and fight back, we could save our nation. A great deal is at stake here, and we must fight back with passion and perseverance to save this "Republic, for which we stand." ~ Now we've added elitist, fatalistic, and lethargic to our list of dishonest, dirty, desperate, disrespectful, morally-void, and trying to destroy the country. Anyway, where does this 'elitist' thing come from? Last time I checked, us non-Republicans are the guys in the grungy clothes working our rear-ends off trying to make an honest living against all odds. Anyway, it's 4am now & I should get to bed I suppose..! Sorry for the rant. I have to say, this is the very last thing I'll say on the topic, because I'm sure I've been boring everyone to tears. Robin T ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 05:23:57 -0500 From: "Melissa R. Jordan" Subject: Alloy: Back from Smoking Hell Hi, guys, Just back from 2 1/2 weeks out of country. I got seriously tired of answering questions about the debacle that is the US prez election. I wish it would go away. Georgia was not a pleasant place to be - strange because I remember enjoying it so much on previous trips. Chainsmoking at meetings, meals, you name it, has become de rigeur (smoking was always big in the USSR, but not THIS big), the streets were filled with burning leaves, and energy protests brought burning tires to the center of town. End result for bronchitis girl: she be pretty ill. I was sick throughout my three days in London at the end of my trip (although I had a good time - had my traditional Warren Zevon "Werewolves of London" meal of beef chow mein at Lee Ho Fook's, saw some very good comedy on stage, bought lots of music). Now, though, I'm so sick, I don't know if I can tolerate a flight to Montana at the end of the week for my vacation. I'm hoping for some very, very good antibiotics from the doctor when I go in a few hours. I have fingers and toes crossed - I'm really looking forward to having a fireplace and a jacuzzi in the snow (and having Canada a short drive away - lovely scenery! nice people! codeine without a prescription!) Anyway, it's 5:20 in the morning, I can't sleep for all the coughing - and when I did sleep, all my dreams were in Russian. I think it's time for some good tea, and, hopefully, something good will be on Animal Planet. :-) Sorry I have no Dolby content for you today! Back to lurking and coughing, Melissa - -- Melissa R. Jordan Director, Compass Rose Consulting International (http://www.askcrc.com) Owner/Artist, Compass Rose Studios (http://www.crstudios.com) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 08:39:28 -0600 From: "Julie Sweeney" Subject: Alloy: Re: alloy-digest V5 #287 A few more Election Insanity comments, I just can't help myself. > Elaine: To me the supremes are the last hope > of nonpartisan rule-of-law sanity in all this mess. I will be devastated > if that turns out not to be the case. I have to agree with that. Who else could act as the final arbiter for all of this? > Keith: I used to work for a company that did mail panel surveys on consumer > products. People never read instructions on surveys. You're right, I guess they don't. But isn't that pathetic? "I didn't bother to read the instructions, so my vote didn't get counted, I've been disenfranchised!!!" Sorry, man, you disenfranchised yourself. I'm big on this personal responsibility thing. > For that reason, my modest proposal would be for each state to go to the same > proportional electoral system used by Nebraska and Maine. Basically, each > congressional district elects their own elector, who votes according to the > way that district voted. Whoever wins the whole state then gets a bonus of 2 > electors. It works out, because the number of electoral votes for each state > is equal to the number of congressional representatives (both House and > Senate). That way, communities that are different from the norm in their > state, like Boulder or like conservative areas of California, would have more > of a voice in the process. But the smaller states would still have a greater > voice than they would with a straight popular vote. Plus, it wouldn't require > a constitutional amendment (which I really wouldn't expect to fly, since a > number of said smaller states would have to ratify it). As for the Electoral College issue, I attach the following link to county-by-county election results throughout the nation. It ran in USA Today (not generally a reader of that), some of you may have seen it. It, in and of itself, is an excellent argument FOR the electoral college, and perhaps even for the proposal above. http://www.usatoday.com/news/vote2000/cbc/map.htm I guess this has hit a nerve for some of us political junkies. I know Zagnut and I were up till around 3am our time Election Night. To me, it's not only interesting just to see the process and know the results, but fascinating to watch history being made. Gotta go be Mommy now.... Julie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 08:55:57 -0800 (PST) From: Elaine Linstruth Subject: Alloy: Election (OT) Sorry Robin. You're not boring anyone! Talk all you want! I didn't warn you all enough, when I said "she gets partisan" in her essay. I was gonna chop it off halfway, but couldn't figure out where.. then decided, "well, it's her essay, not mine, I'll just leave it alone." Guess I maybe should have performed some editing after all. :) But anyway, my points were the same as the ones she used in the beginning. I didn't mean to infer that anyone non-Repub is some kind of monster, certainly. To answer some of your questions, while I'm no expert on Republican party platform, I believe most of them are not heartless zealots. I think a lot of them are scared, and aren't skilled at either debate or protesting. I can answer one of your questions though, the one about "elitists." Republicans disdain the rich and powerful Democrats that feign knowledge of ... um, put it this way. The dichotomy of the powerful one claiming to embrace public education and espousing all its glories, yet sending his kids to high priced private ones. See what I'm getting at? Claiming you're safer if he makes it illegal for you to carry a self-defense weapon, at the same time running around everywhere with armed bodyguards. That case was made famous with Rosie. In the case of politicians, those bodyguards are paid for with the peoples' public money, adding insult to injury. That's the sort of thing they mean by elitist.. not blue-collar workers or the public servants with hearts of gold. There are plenty of those in both parties. :) I don't know about anybody else, but I'm enjoying the discourse. As long as we keep OT in the subject, and as long as there's participation, I see no reason to be quiet. This thing has gone on over three weeks now. I'm edgy and upset about it and it's building. I'm happy to find an outlet of discussion that isn't all flamebait and screaming matches. Thank you, Alloyeds! - -- Elaine Linstruth Palmdale, CA, USA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 14:30:27 -0500 From: Robin Thurlow Subject: Re: Alloy: Election (OT) Elaine Linstruth wrote: > The dichotomy of > the powerful one claiming to embrace public education and espousing all > its glories, yet sending his kids to high priced private ones. See what > I'm getting at? Claiming you're safer if he makes it illegal for you to > carry a self-defense weapon, at the same time running around everywhere > with armed bodyguards. That case was made famous with Rosie. In the case > of politicians, those bodyguards are paid for with the peoples' public > money, adding insult to injury. That's the sort of thing they mean by > elitist.. not blue-collar workers or the public servants with hearts of > gold. There are plenty of those in both parties. :) I definitely agree hypocrisy is terrible, as in the public schools or Rosie cases! If people themselves don't even want to live by what they claim to believe is right for everyone, then they'd better re-think whatever fantasy image of themselves they're trying to project, and deal with who they really are. It's all right to feel a certain way about something no matter what it is, but you have to stand by what you believe in and not be afraid. I know there are plenty of very honest, caring, generous, intelligent individuals of every philosophy - I'm lucky enough to know a lot of them! :) I wish the 19-year-old woman who wrote the essay had been more clear on certain points such as her 'elitist' Democrat accusation, and her other derogatory remarks. One must be very careful about how one uses words in a highly-charged controversial situation, and take the time to say exactly what is meant. I'm not easily offended by any stretch of the imagination, but the claim that non-Republicans are somehow 'morally void' bothered me more deeply than anything else in the essay I think. It's so offensive across the board, reminiscent of every kind of colonialist mindset or holy war ever inflicted on humanity. No one has the right to judge other people's so-called 'moral' standing. Not only is it a personal matter and highly individualized, even within any given system of belief, but it's also a nebulous area which leaves a lot of room for interpretation depending on who you're talking to, and what *their* beliefs happen to be. I have a funny thing to contribute to this off-topic discussion. I spent this morning in the walk-in clinic watching a little CNN (sudden asthma attacks continue to be an annoyance ever since the pneumonia thing) There's a woman in a Florida court who says she's been so upset by the idea that her vote might not be counted, she's had to be hospitalized twice since the election, & is now suing the Florida government for millions! The nurse who took my pulse cracked up about this when I told her about this! It's nice to hear everyone's thoughts on all of this! I always enjoy conversation with the intelligent people on this list (even non-Dolby conversation!! :) and I'm learning a lot about all sides of the situation. But I've been worried about those who only want to read Dolby news and information on a Dolby list. I agree that putting an OT label in the subject line is the best way to handle any non-Dolby discussion, as we have been doing (this is a subject that's come up many times before) and I hope it hasn't been too bothersome to everyone else out there. Our list is very low-volume anyway, and mailboxes are unlikely to fill up with political commentary. In any case, for those who do not want to read about United States politics in the Thomas Dolby list, the election nonsense will be over with in short order (I HOPE!!! :) so this line of conversation will probably have a short shelf-life. Robin T ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 10:30:03 -0800 From: "Kathleen T. Presser" Subject: Alloy: Re: alloy-digest V5 #287 This is my thoughts on the election this year. For one thing, both candidates have been sponsored by multinational corporations who have their own wicked little agendas for each candidate to follow. Notice how many people were arrested who even tried to protest at the republican and democratic conventions?? I believe in the recount since I think Florida as a state has been doing some hanky panky when it comes to everybody voting. Not everyone was allowed to vote who should've been allowed to vote. I think Florida oughta change their balloting procedure. This election may have brought to light some bad stuff that's been happening in Florida in every election but hasn't been reported on by the corporate media. Bush and Gore should just relax. I like Bush less then Gore as far as issues are concerned. I like the 'flip a coin' theory as to who wins. LOL. Enough said. What entertainment this has been!! Kate;-) Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 11:36:35 -0800 (PST) From: Elaine Linstruth Subject: Alloy: Hi! Dawn!! Oh man am I behind the times. It's been ages since I wrote, I'm so sorry. This whole year kinda ganged up on me. I can't believe it's nearly December. Now, let me get this straight -- you're gonna be a mom??? When did I miss this information?? Congratulations!! Oh man what awesome news! How is it going so far? Your mom must be thrilled. What's the due date and all that stuff? Are you gonna find out the sex? I have email waiting from Lei-Ling and Lisa Jorgensen.. when I reply to them can I fill them in too? Or have you already. No matter, I'll mention it. They'll be happy for you too I'm sure! I'll keep this short cause I'm right in the middle of cleaning up the 300-some-odd emails that I've been neglecting. I just wanted to make sure and send you a quick note here RIGHT NOW while I was thinking about it. Write me back and let me know how you're doing. This is so exciting!! I'm gonna be an Auntie Elaine finally. :) Love, Elaine P.S. WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON DOWN THERE IN FLORIDA!? ;P - -- Elaine Linstruth Palmdale, CA, USA "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 "The American people must be willing to give up a degree of personal privacy in exchange for safety and security." -- FBI Director Louis Freeh, 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 16:54:58 -0500 (EST) From: "Dennis S. Alexander" Subject: Alloy: OT: The Lathe Of Heaven ...and now for something completely different, or, back to an earlier topic... I got the movie quite a while ago and took it promptly to my parents apartment as I was to spend that evening with them. My brother and sister were there along with my dear and ever lovely Teresa. Though the special effects were rather bad, if not cheezy in some places the movie was quite wonderful! The whole family quite enjoyed it. I kept piping up with "I forgot about that scene! That's is so cool!" It wouldn't survive at the box office at all but among sci-fi fans, I'm sure its great to see this gem again. I wonder if anyone might consider redoing the movie entirely, now that Hollywood seems to have no problem with special effects and large budgets these days. But even then, I'm sure it wouldn't be able to match what PBS did for it with their low budget/low tech production. Reading reviews about it on the internet, it seems to be the concensus that what really made the movie was that so much that could have been visually shown, wasn't, so the mind had a lot more to play with. Which might be why the movie held my fascination for these 20 years unlike any other movie. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 17:19:45 -0500 From: Robin Thurlow Subject: Re: Alloy: Back from Smoking Hell Welcome back Melissa!! We've missed you! you wrote: > Just back from 2 1/2 weeks out of country. I got seriously tired of > answering questions about the debacle that is the US prez election. I > wish it would go away. I'd love to know what the Russians think of all this (though maybe i shouldn't ask...) > Now, though, I'm so sick, I don't know if I can tolerate a flight to > Montana at the end of the week for my vacation. I'm hoping for some > very, very good antibiotics from the doctor when I go in a few hours. I > have fingers and toes crossed - I'm really looking forward to having a > fireplace and a jacuzzi in the snow (and having Canada a short drive > away - lovely scenery! nice people! codeine without a prescription!) Sorry you're sick!! I hope your doctor has given you some good news/good meds, and that you'll still be able to make it to Montana (with me crammed into your carry-on luggage of course :) Don't do anything strenuous, drink *lots* of tea... you've been looking forward to this Montana trip for months & you have to go!! But as a precaution have local doctor #s there and a way to get to a clinic if you should run into trouble there. Though you will do nothing but *relax* there, be spectacularly healthy, and have a wonderful time. The jacuzzi! the fireplace! (we do have one @ home that we never light, but i'm making a Christmas stocking to hang on the mantle for my ferret) You must be having fun reading all of our political ramblings here. DC must be a disaster area right about now. You do need to leave there and go on vacation, you realize (have I said this before? LOL) take things easy & feel better!! xxxx Robin T ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 15:07:02 -0800 (PST) From: Elaine Linstruth Subject: Alloy: Apologies Guess I hit "reply" when I didn't realize it! Sorry. Personal mail sent by mistake to a friend of mine in Coral Springs. Luckily, at least, it's not supremely embarrassing in any way (other than my butterfingers). I'll tell Dawn I'm sure you're all happy for her news. :) - -- Elaine Linstruth Palmdale, CA, USA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 22:45:56 -0800 From: robb & tara Subject: Alloy: Presidential Banter Hey everybody - I know I'm a newer kid on the block, and I really haven't written since my initial thingee about a month or so ago, but really... The election was nearly a month ago. It's out of our hands. How many of you live in Florida? I bet the Thomas Dolby Fan Base has minimal effect there (except for maybe Miami...). No matter how much noise is made today, the ears you have been trying to reach have been turned off as of 9PM Nov 7 2000 (may be a different time depending on where you live). All I know is, is that Nader did not win; and unfortunately did not receive the 5% vote needed to enable the Green Party to receive 'matching funds,' as it were, for the next round. So we'll have to deal with the likes of Buchannan again next time (for us non-republicrat voters). As it is, I have to cope with Hillary as a Senator. Ahhh. There, I said it. On to music... Anyone in the Upstate New York wanna start a Dolby cover band with myself and a partner? Also, I'm still looking to buy a cd of Gothic. Gimme! ~robb ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 20:08:14 -0800 (PST) From: Elaine Linstruth Subject: Re: Alloy: Election (OT) & Presidential Banter > I wish the 19-year-old woman > who wrote the essay had been more clear on certain points such as her > 'elitist' Democrat accusation, and her other derogatory remarks. I agree Robin, we have to be careful how we present ourselves, you're right. It's my fault for even posting the essay in the first place, seeing as where I found it was in a context where some of her comments were given in their meaning. Next time I'll judiciously edit, or just quote certain parts. I think even she would regret certain phraseology, but then again would never have expected an audience outside where she was published. To Beth and everyone else, I agree with the idea of electoral vote-splitting, whatever the right terminology would be. I especially like the idea of not needing a Constitutional amendment to do it. A discussion about the Constitution being a flexible document should be avoided I fear, because it seems there's a deep chasm in opinions on that one. Regardless, it would take a 3/4 majority to accomplish, and I'm sure no one wants to go through that. Especially after this ordeal! Tara and Robb, I mostly agree with what you said about it officially being out of our hands, however, the legal wrangling could still change things around 180 degrees at any given time. It still consumes and fascinates me. So, I apologize if anyone thinks this is going on too long. Treading lightly so as not to totally offend everybody, I still enjoy the back & forth. If I could fix the thing tomorrow I would make it happen tonight. Since I can't, it seems like coping mechanisms are the current mode. Lucky for me I have a sounding board of friends. Although, maybe not so lucky for you!! I also fear I must sound kind of wimpy about it all.. but for some reason I'm really torn up. I haven't been sleeping well, feel guilty about asking my 3-year-old to "let me hear the news" for three weeks, and generally can't shake the ominous feeling that seems to be growing inside my head. Feelin' blue tonight, Elaine ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 20:12:32 -0800 (PST) From: Elaine Linstruth Subject: Alloy: Gothic Robb, I almost forgot: Gothic on DVD at Amazon.com... $21 bucks! If you mean strictly audio CD, I don't see it there. (Didn't even know such an animal existed, actually..) - -- Elaine Linstruth Palmdale, CA, USA "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 "The American people must be willing to give up a degree of personal privacy in exchange for safety and security." -- FBI Director Louis Freeh, 1993 ------------------------------ End of alloy-digest V5 #288 ***************************