From: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org (alloy-digest) To: alloy-digest@smoe.org Subject: alloy-digest V5 #287 Reply-To: alloy@smoe.org Sender: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "alloy-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. alloy-digest Wednesday, November 29 2000 Volume 05 : Number 287 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Alloy: Re: Calendar [andyjmail@cheerful.com] Re: Alloy: Re: Calendar [Robin Thurlow ] Alloy: Election mayhem continued ... [Damien Sweeney ] Re: Alloy: Election mayhem continued ... [Robin Thurlow ] Re: Alloy: Election mayhem continued ... ["Keith Stansell" Subject: Re: Alloy: Re: Calendar andyjmail@cheerful.com wrote: > Would it be a good idea to collect as many Dolby dates > as possible to add to the calendar? Even if we are > limited to recording-related items such as when track A > was recorded, when album B was released etc? > > Does anyone else agree with me? (that would be a first!) Yes!! (and we can put the anniversary of my saying 'yes' to your idea, since you think it's such a momentous occasion... haahaaa :) This is a fantastic idea. We can go through the Discographies & check out the dates of releases, etc, as many as we can find - also anniversaries of when Headspace/Beatnik was begun, and other important Beatnik-related dates. It's going to be quite a long list since Thomas has done so much! Any dates already known by Alloy members, please send them, and we'll start a compilation. Thanks Andy!! xxxxx Robin T ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 12:03:31 -0600 From: Damien Sweeney Subject: Alloy: Election mayhem continued ... >------------------------------ > >Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 22:45:03 -0500 >From: "DENISE D LUCKEY" >Subject: Re: Alloy: Election mayhem (OT) > >... As one analyst put it the polling machines are not perfect-if you put a >dollar bill in a Coke machine and it spits it out does that mean the bill is >bad and you throw it away? ... Flawed analogy Denise. People know enough to choose a dollar that IS in good condition - one that WILL be accepted. If they do not know this then guess what? They don't get a Coke. People should make sure that they provide "dollars" that will be accepted by the machine - thus ensuring that they get what they want. It's up to them to go and get a dollar (or EARN a dollar - don't even get me started!) that will work in the machine - and they do this everyday. Maybe it's not the "dollar" that is in question... I much prefer another analogy: "If there is one candy bar in the vending machine that does not sell as well as the other candy bars do people say "Look, this whole machine is broken, it simply must be! - What else would cause there to be so many unchosen candy bars of one type?" Perhaps the unchosen candy bar is a Zagnut. :) Perhaps people simply found the other selections more appetizing. Or, on a lighter note - maybe we are all just Zagnuts hoping for the vindication that comes from having been chosen. Yes! Finally! Chosen above the smug M&M's and the mocking Snickers bars that relentlessly torment without any consideration or any thought of ... Oh. sorry. - {lurk mode back on} Damien - (the brother in the codpiece) Damien J. Sweeney dsweeney@netpros-inc.net President/CEO Network Professionals, Inc. (Formerly PC Professionals, Inc.) We Make It Work! with Experience, Innovation & Integrity ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 10:58:13 -0800 From: Jon Drukman Subject: Re: Alloy: Election mayhem (OT) At 09:36 PM 11/27/2000 -0500, you wrote: >(And no -- >no instructions that I've ever been given in my voting career have ever >told me to >scour the back of my ballot to be sure that the little remnant was >completely and >totally detached, and most people would find such instructions a silly >waste of >time. in past years in my area (san francisco, california), there were signs around the voting place - and on the ballot itself - saying exactly that. this year however we had a different system involving an optical scanner and special pens. you drew a black line between two arrows to indicate your vote, and at the end you put the ballot into the scanner yourself. - -jsd- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 15:16:39 -0500 From: Robin Thurlow Subject: Re: Alloy: Election mayhem continued ... Damien Sweeney wrote: > maybe we are all just Zagnuts hoping for the > vindication that comes from having been chosen. Yes! Finally! Chosen above > the smug M&M's and the mocking Snickers bars that relentlessly torment > without > any consideration or any thought of ... Oh. sorry. - {lurk mode back on} all chocolate is smug, and mocks me... *sob* relentlesly tormented, Robin T ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 12:23:59 -0800 (PST) From: Elaine Linstruth Subject: Re: Alloy: Election mayhem (OT) I will come out of lurk mode to add 2 cents.. probably angering some, but in support of some others. In an effort to present another viewpoint for our friends outside the USA, I'll go on record as saying I am among the alleged 60% (who believes polls) who state that Gore should just concede already. As far as election night goes, the most heinous of the prematurely-called states was Florida, in part because the media called the state for Gore first, prior to some of the polls even being closed. Bush didn't tell anybody what to do, he just said he thought they should rethink their call.. and he was right. The panhandle area of that state is in a completely different time zone, offset from the rest of FL by an hour, and is known as a conservative region. I stayed up until 3 a.m., glued to the television (that's 6 a.m. Eastern). Secondly, with all due respect, I think that if all the allegations of fraud were credible, Gore would be using them right now.. seeing as, if true, they would of course be horrific examples of voter fraud and civil rights violations. Since he isn't, and hasn't even alleged such things in his court filings or public speeches, that speaks volumes in my mind. The excuses he is using instead, I find weak at best. Whichever way we feel, we could go on all day citing examples of what we find stupid or illegal about this mess, cause there's blame to be had on all sides. Having said all that, I will also point out that I'm a real-life card-carrying Libertarian, and I honestly dread a presidency with EITHER of these guys. I'm no Bush fan. I believe the majority of people here are not thrilled with their "side's" choice of candidate, which adds to the overall tension and hopelessness most voters felt before, and now. Gore's continuing to contest this process is only agitating people further. I don't know if Bush was correct in lobbying the US Supreme Court but honestly I can't wait to hear what they say. States' rights are a cause near and dear to my heart. To me the supremes are the last hope of nonpartisan rule-of-law sanity in all this mess. I will be devastated if that turns out not to be the case. I've been using these two quotes in my .signature for awhile now. I'm proud to say that people have actually told me it's made them think. Ok.. back to lurking. - -- Elaine Linstruth Palmdale, CA, USA "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 "The American people must be willing to give up a degree of personal privacy in exchange for safety and security." -- FBI Director Louis Freeh, 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 13:59:03 -0700 From: "Keith Stansell" Subject: Re: Alloy: Election mayhem continued ... I'm just waiting for the "Presidential Death Match". At least with a battle to death, you don't have to hear the looser whine. Or perhaps a more civilized coin toss will do. Paper rock scissors - SOMETHING. I used to work for a company that did mail panel surveys on consumer products. People never read instructions on surveys. At least the ballots were not like typical consumer surveys. Can you imagine the results of the following: - --- I think George Bush should be president: Disagree --- Somewhat Disagree --- Neither Agree nor Disagree - Somewhat Agree - Agree I think Al Gore should be president: Disagree --- Somewhat Disagree --- Neither Agree nor Disagree - Somewhat Agree - Agree ... - -Keith - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Thurlow" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2000 1:16 PM Subject: Re: Alloy: Election mayhem continued ... > > Damien Sweeney wrote: > > > maybe we are all just Zagnuts hoping for the > > vindication that comes from having been chosen. Yes! Finally! Chosen above > > the smug M&M's and the mocking Snickers bars that relentlessly torment > > without > > any consideration or any thought of ... Oh. sorry. - {lurk mode back on} > > all chocolate is smug, and mocks me... *sob* > > relentlesly tormented, > Robin T ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 18:24:24 -0500 (EST) From: andyjmail@cheerful.com Subject: Alloy: Dissidents translation I am sitting here with a **HUGE** grin on my face :o) I **LOVE** this internet! Sometimes I could kiss my monitor, LOL I hope you like this message I received today. ---- Uri wrote: > Hello Andy! > > My name is Uri and I live in Moscow, Russia. First of all, thank you for your page about Mr.Dolby - I like his music very much too. Second, I'm sorry for my English but hope it is readable. And the third is the main. > > I just have visited your "Andy J's Guide to Thomas Dolby" and found a mistake. It is where you talk about the song "Dissidents" from "The Flat Earth". English translation > "I remember the night they came for my father and mother. It was in the days when grain was plentiful ... we had eaten a simple meal of barley gruel on the porch. The car drove away into the night. I never saw them again ... ever again." > has nothing common with background text in Russian. > > Translation given later on your page > "the bough that is young and supple bends in the wind, but the bough that is old and rigid snaps." > is better but is neither complete nor exact. > > The original > "Kogda chelovek roditsia, on slab i gibok. Kogda umiraet - on krepok i cherstv. Kogda derevo rastet - ono nezhnoe i gibkoe. A kogda ono suho i zhestko - ono umiraet, ono umiraet." > are the words spoken by an actor played the major role in "Stalker" movie by world-known Andrei Tarkovsky (http://skywalking.com/tarkovsky/). > > The meaning is > "Human at his birth is weak and flexible. At his death he is hard and dry. When tree is growing, it is tender and flexible. But when it is dry and hard - it dies, it dies." > > May be if you have a chance to watch that movie in English, you will find better translation there. Anyway, the movies by Andrey Tarkovsky are really worth to see and I think if you like Mr.Dolby's music, you will understand and like the movie too, despite they are not connected with each other, of course. > > > > Sincerely, > > Uri Kapustin. > Isn't that great?! I'll be writing back to Uri in the next day or two - I thought I'd pass it on to Alloy though while I had a spare moment. Cheers, +AndyJ+ - ---------------------------------------------------------------- Get your free email from AltaVista at http://altavista.iname.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 18:47:41 -0500 From: Robin Thurlow Subject: Re: Alloy: Dissidents translation andyjmail@cheerful.com wrote: > I am sitting here with a **HUGE** grin on my face :o) > I **LOVE** this internet! Sometimes I could kiss my > monitor, LOL > > I hope you like this message I received today. ~ snip excellent message from Uri ~ Andy, I love it too - thanks for posting this!!! You get some very cool people visiting your page. Thomas will be so psyched to read this Russian translation, I'll bet! Please give Uri 'best regards' on behalf of everyone @ Alloy when you write back to him :) xxx Robin T ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 19:37:28 -0500 From: Robin Thurlow Subject: Alloy: re: more OT election/confusion! Slarvibarglhee wrote: > Either way, it does seem extraordinary that it's taking so long to come up with an indisputable result. For even more confusion, look into the issue of the 'electoral college' - which I am just barely getting the grasp of. From what I understand, a certain number of anonymous individuals are appointed to take the election results into account for whatever state they represent, and then *they* decide who won. The only trouble is, it may or may not go along with the popular vote. It's happened in the past that a candidate who won the popular vote did not actually win the presidency, because the 'electoral colleges' of crucial states, in all their wisdom, decided in favor of the other guy. I am told the electoral college system, which is what gives each state a certain # of 'electoral votes', was originally brought into being ages ago (though it was never put forth in the constitution) because some states had very small populations. Attaching an electoral vote number to each state was supposed to encourage presidential candidates to consider all states - and their relevant issues - important, not just heavily populated ones where lots of individual votes would matter. It was meant to 'even things out' for rich and poor states alike. While this is a noble idea in a lot of ways, it does call into question the very nature of the whole voting process, which is the essence of democracy. And I don't understand why some states have 15 electoral votes, while others have 2, under this system. Just a little more fun for your consideration, from the 'land of the free' :) spontaneously combusting from the neck up, Robin T ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 18:22:10 -0800 (PST) From: Elaine Linstruth Subject: Re: Alloy: re: more OT election/confusion! Hey Robin, I'll try to be helpful for a change. In regards to the Electoral College, here is my understanding. If it were to be repealed by Constitutional amendment, then every national election would be decided by California, New York, Texas, and Florida. There's a lot more to it than this, but it's a major aspect. The less urban states would suddenly completely lose their voice, which if you think about it would leave them with no real need to even be in the union. That's how I'd feel if one whole branch of government didn't represent me in any way. As for what's fair in a democracy, I submit that the USA is not one. :) I've decided to attach the following essay I found, which I think is quite good, and was written by a 19-year-old girl, dated 11/21/2000. Please tell me what you think of it. At the end she gets partisan but her factual points are right on and I've quoted the text numerous times in recent discussions. "In a direct Democracy, there could be a spontaneous massive upheaval of Governmental policy due to a mere whim of the majority." This is a really great point, in my opinion. The Electoral College gives our government strength. The one good thing about all this uproar is that smart folks are really delving into the whole process, both literally and philosophically -- and that can only have a positive long-term effect. One thing I've noticed is that I find common ground with people through discussions, that I wouldn't even have looked for previously, just assuming there wouldn't be any. Read on... - -- Elaine Linstruth Palmdale, CA, USA America is Not a Democracy! by Stephanie Smith From the website Trust The People! [http://www.geocities.com/countercoup/], I take this quote: "Bush should step down and ask electors to cast their vote for Gore. If the guy who got the most votes doesn't win, then IT ISN'T DEMOCRACY!" It may surprise some people to hear this, but the United States of America is not a Democracy. It's a Republic. If you want to be technical about it, our country is a Democratic Republic. There are reasons for this. In a direct Democracy, the majority rules - period. So if 51% of the population decided to outlaw coffee, coffee would become illegal. Never mind the 49% who drink coffee, their rights wouldn't matter under a direct Democracy. The chief problem of Democracy is majority tyrannization of the minority. Systems such as the Senate, the House of Representatives, and the Electoral College help to check Democracy. These are the establishments that make our country a Republic. The will of the people is still recognized, but the country is Scotch Guarded against mob stupidity. Also, quite importantly, the rights of the minority are protected. In the Declaration of Independence, it says "Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes..." In a direct Democracy, there could be a spontaneous massive upheaval of Governmental policy due to a mere whim of the majority. Also, our Constitution is not, by any stretch of the imagination, a "living document." The constitution means exactly what it says and not what judges interpret its meaning to probably be. This is another protection against our country's foundation being upheaved for light and transient causes. About the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States, Dr. Richard G. Stevens wrote, "Such a recovery of the true meaning of the documents is essential if we are not to be at the mercy of enthusiasms and slogans." If anybody reading this is a Democrat who voted for Gore and is now protesting the Electoral College, I ask you these questions: 1.) How many of you only found out about the Electoral College due to this election? 2.) If the situation were reversed, if Bush were ahead in the popular vote but Gore was about to win due to the Electoral College system, how many of you would be genuinely protesting the Electoral College now? 3.) How many of you would even care? 4.) And finally, how many of you would be praising the Electoral College as part of the system that makes our country work, enabled Gore to win by law, and helps to truly represent the will of the People of our great Nation? Answer honestly now. One more point I have is that, if the situation were reversed as proposed in question #2, do you think that Republicans would be up in arms against the Electoral College, much as the Democrats are now? My answer: I don't think so. Maybe a few ignoramuses would claim it as antiquated (there are some of those in every party), but on the whole, Republicans are more Constitutionally literate, understand its value, and aren't willing to shred the foundation of our country in order to get their guy in office. That last part sound familiar? In conclusion, we must protect our Constitution, and in doing so, the integrity of our country, as well. To those who say that the Democrats are fighting dirty and we must fight back just as dirty, I say no! We must NOT, under any circumstances, sink to their level. It would only further erode the honest foundation of our country, and make us no better than them. We must fight back honestly, call them on Voter Fraud [http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_btl/20001106_xcbtl_voter_frau.shtml] charges, expose them for the desperate, disrespectful, and morally-void people that they are. To those who are protesting the Electoral College under guise of trying to preserve our "Democracy," we must wake them up and show them what the Constitution is there for. To those elected officials who are calling recounts and pulling strings wherever they can in order to get Gore into office, we must all band together to reach up and bite them in their collective @$$, reminding them that they are NOT the ruling class of this nation. This is not as impossible as the elitist Democrats have intimidated us into believing. If enough just wake up from their fatalistic discouragement-induced lethargy and fight back, we could save our nation. A great deal is at stake here, and we must fight back with passion and perseverance to save this "Republic, for which we stand." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 21:10:41 -0500 From: Beth Meyer Subject: Re: Alloy: re: more OT election/confusion! Hi, folks; More thoughts on the electoral college (apologies in advance to those who are truly bored with the topic): I can see the point of wanting to keep the electoral college, for the sake of not having the election decided by the major population centers of the country. However, I think the current winner-take-all for each state system is flawed in another way. Many states like California and Florida are large and diverse, and not well represented by that system. Elaine points out that, without the electoral college, smaller states would completely lose their voice. However, in the current system, minority communities of larger states already have. Colorado is a fine example. We got just about no attention from any of the major party candidates (I think Dick Cheney might have stopped in an airport in the Denver area for about 2 hours) because they both assumed correctly that the state was safely in Bush's hands. However, the 2nd Congressional District, which is dominated by Boulder, is aging hippie central. There, the big debate among the people was whether to vote for Gore or Nader. While Gore completely ignored Colorado, a lot of folks in Boulder would have really wanted to have a chance to see him in person and evaluate him better. For that reason, my modest proposal would be for each state to go to the same proportional electoral system used by Nebraska and Maine. Basically, each congressional district elects their own elector, who votes according to the way that district voted. Whoever wins the whole state then gets a bonus of 2 electors. It works out, because the number of electoral votes for each state is equal to the number of congressional representatives (both House and Senate). That way, communities that are different from the norm in their state, like Boulder or like conservative areas of California, would have more of a voice in the process. But the smaller states would still have a greater voice than they would with a straight popular vote. Plus, it wouldn't require a constitutional amendment (which I really wouldn't expect to fly, since a number of said smaller states would have to ratify it). Just another random thought... - -Beth bethmeyer@mindspring.com ------------------------------ End of alloy-digest V5 #287 ***************************