From: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org (alloy-digest) To: alloy-digest@smoe.org Subject: alloy-digest V5 #241 Reply-To: alloy@smoe.org Sender: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "alloy-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. alloy-digest Thursday, October 5 2000 Volume 05 : Number 241 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Alloy: piracy issue/example ["Diva" ] Re: Alloy: piracy issue/example ["Keith Stansell" ] Re: Alloy: piracy issue/example ["Keith Stansell" ] Re: Alloy: piracy issue/example [Robin Thurlow ] Re: Alloy: piracy issue/example [Robin Thurlow ] Re: Alloy: piracy issue/example [Brian Clayton ] Re: Alloy: piracy issue/example ["Diva" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 05:19:50 +0100 From: "Diva" Subject: Re: Alloy: piracy issue/example On the subject of selling Thomas Dolby live cds, Robin asked: >What might be a correct way to proceed in such a case - if you were the >artist, say, and this were your material being sold by someone else? >What might we as fans do to (politely!!) reprimand people doing this? Maybe I'm going to generate some flames here but...I've heard of more than one group that thinks it is OK for people to tape their concerts because they know every concert can't be legally released but the fans want to hear them. I disagree strongly with pirating legal releases such as albums, but have no problem at all with bootleg live material, for the simple reason that record companies almost never put it out. Consider Thomas: Live Wireless is an old video, long out of print and unlikely to be re-released. It was only released on video, and will never now be released on cd. I can think of dozens of artists like Thomas who have done excellent live shows but whose record companies never release cds of their shows because they don't think it would make them money. Why don't they sell the rights? For those of us who never had the chance to see Thomas live, bootleg cds are the closest we'll ever get. I would prefer legal material, but I own everything I could legally buy by Thomas that I can get hold of, so I wouldn't feel at all guilty about buying illicit live material. For the same reason, I have no problem with the distribution of live material on the net. If artists don't like it, perhaps it will encourage them to insist that this material is released legally. Until then, I'm afraid I would be happy to encourage people doing this rather than reprimand them. Oh dear...all those nice posts I meant to send and I end up sending this! Sally diva@tn.prestel.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 09:59:31 -0600 From: "Keith Stansell" Subject: Re: Alloy: piracy issue/example I agree with Diva in some respects. I always thought the legality of copying out of print or non released material was a bit fuzzy. The music in rare or out of print material usually does have a copyright attached to it, but as far as the selling of it hurting the artist, I think can sometimes be hard to judge. As far as the sale of copies of rare out of print works, I think the people most hurt buy these copies are those who deal in selling of rare and out of print works. Since a person can buy a CD copy of the vinyl for $10.00, why shell out $60.00 to get the actual vinyl from the used record store. Either way, TMDR would get no royalties from the sale. However, you may judge the selling of a copy as good promotion for the artist. If you buy a CD of this album, then there are at least two copies of it floating around. More ears can hear the work, more people could get interested in the artist and buy CD's in the store from that artist which are not out of print. Perhaps for instance, Pioneer could put Live Wireless on DVD (wouldn't that be cool) and someone would be more interested in buying the live video because they enjoyed the copy of the King Biscuit show. I'm not saying what the guy who wrote you is doing is right, but it is hard to say if he is actually hurting TMDR by doing what he is doing. I would be careful if I was that guy though. The people who would most likely be upset with this is King Biscuit themselves. They are selling CD's of their concerts which include material not originally on the radio show. I checked their web site http://www.king-biscuit.com - unfortunately no TMDR. Perhaps we should write them and request they put it on CD. - -Keith - -----Original Message----- From: Diva To: alloy@smoe.org Date: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 8:32 AM Subject: Re: Alloy: piracy issue/example > >On the subject of selling Thomas Dolby live cds, Robin asked: > >>What might be a correct way to proceed in such a case - if you were the >>artist, say, and this were your material being sold by someone else? >>What might we as fans do to (politely!!) reprimand people doing this? > > >Maybe I'm going to generate some flames here but...I've heard of more than >one group that thinks it is OK for people to tape their concerts because >they know every concert can't be legally released but the fans want to hear >them. I disagree strongly with pirating legal releases such as albums, but >have no problem at all with bootleg live material, for the simple reason >that record companies almost never put it out. Consider Thomas: Live >Wireless is an old video, long out of print and unlikely to be re-released. >It was only released on video, and will never now be released on cd. I can >think of dozens of artists like Thomas who have done excellent live shows >but whose record companies never release cds of their shows because they >don't think it would make them money. Why don't they sell the rights? For >those of us who never had the chance to see Thomas live, bootleg cds are the >closest we'll ever get. I would prefer legal material, but I own everything >I could legally buy by Thomas that I can get hold of, so I wouldn't feel at >all guilty about buying illicit live material. For the same reason, I have >no problem with the distribution of live material on the net. If artists >don't like it, perhaps it will encourage them to insist that this material >is released legally. Until then, I'm afraid I would be happy to encourage >people doing this rather than reprimand them. > >Oh dear...all those nice posts I meant to send and I end up sending this! > >Sally >diva@tn.prestel.co.uk > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 10:40:17 -0600 From: "Keith Stansell" Subject: Re: Alloy: piracy issue/example An intrusting side note to my last message. I guess you could say the guy who was selling the CD actually helped King Biscuit. While I was browsing the King Biscuit web site to write my previous message, I decided to buy a Todd Rudgren concert CD for my brother and sister-in-law as a Christmas present - they are big fans. I wouldn't have done that had that guy not sent the letter to Robin. Just goes to show ya huh. - -Keith - -----Original Message----- From: Keith Stansell To: alloy@smoe.org Date: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 10:33 AM Subject: Re: Alloy: piracy issue/example > >I agree with Diva in some respects. I always thought the legality of >copying out of print or non released material was a bit fuzzy. The music in >rare or out of print material usually does have a copyright attached to it, >but as far as the selling of it hurting the artist, I think can sometimes be >hard to judge. > >As far as the sale of copies of rare out of print works, I think the people >most hurt buy these copies are those who deal in selling of rare and out of >print works. Since a person can buy a CD copy of the vinyl for $10.00, why >shell out $60.00 to get the actual vinyl from the used record store. Either >way, TMDR would get no royalties from the sale. > >However, you may judge the selling of a copy as good promotion for the >artist. If you buy a CD of this album, then there are at least two copies >of it floating around. More ears can hear the work, more people could get >interested in the artist and buy CD's in the store from that artist which >are not out of print. Perhaps for instance, Pioneer could put Live Wireless >on DVD (wouldn't that be cool) and someone would be more interested in >buying the live video because they enjoyed the copy of the King Biscuit >show. > >I'm not saying what the guy who wrote you is doing is right, but it is hard >to say if he is actually hurting TMDR by doing what he is doing. > >I would be careful if I was that guy though. The people who would most >likely be upset with this is King Biscuit themselves. They are selling CD's >of their concerts which include material not originally on the radio show. >I checked their web site http://www.king-biscuit.com - unfortunately no >TMDR. Perhaps we should write them and request they put it on CD. > >-Keith > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 12:43:26 -0400 From: Robin Thurlow Subject: Re: Alloy: piracy issue/example Diva wrote: > For > those of us who never had the chance to see Thomas live, bootleg cds are the > closest we'll ever get. I would prefer legal material, but I own everything > I could legally buy by Thomas that I can get hold of, so I wouldn't feel at > all guilty about buying illicit live material. For the same reason, I have > no problem with the distribution of live material on the net. If artists > don't like it, perhaps it will encourage them to insist that this material > is released legally. Until then, I'm afraid I would be happy to encourage > people doing this rather than reprimand them. Hi Sally, No flames here (come out from under the cupboard, it's okay :) I also have no problem with fans sharing out-of-print material with one another for free - some of us have shared TMDR rarities with one another here in fact - if there's really no other way of hearing the material... and with the knowledge that, if it ever does come available in the future, Dolby's fans would certainly scramble to the nearest record store or internet site and buy it officially. But the offer I received yesterday was from someone who was *selling* a cd of a concert they have no license to, which means someone's lining their pockets with money earned from someone else's creative work, and the artist isn't seeing a dime. Also, the letter was phrased very much like a form letter, with names stuck in (notice the phrase "the band Thomas Dolby" - i think the people doing this are just running down their inventory of whoever's concerts they have on hand & trying to randomly sell them to fans at ten bucks a pop) so it felt like these people were really treading on a lot of artists' rights, not just Thomas. Another example of this type of thing is, if I painted a picture & a lot of people came to see it on the internet & asked to feature it on their own websites for public viewing, I'd be incredibly pleased, as long as I got credit for it & a reference back to my own website (crediting the artist is all-important because of the 'publicity' aspect of sharing, which is why a lot of bands encourage bootleggers to tape shows I think) This may fall along the lines of radio play for the musician. But, if someone else printed out my painting onto greeting cards and started selling them, and pocketing the money, then I'd certainly be outraged. (we're running into a tiny problem like this with some of Dave's work actually, my image/Dave's artwork are being featured on someone's body art site without the slightest reference or link to either of us, and we're trying to get them to at least include Dave's name with the image) The same kind of thing, from what I understand, is why the Screen Actors' Guild has been on strike for months - companies want to change the way commercial actors are paid for their work. Instead of being sent residuals each time a commercial is aired (and our friend John was able to support himself for almost a year on the continued residuals he got from doing a set of commercials for The Boston Globe, which enabled him to focus on getting more acting work, rather than being stuck at the Copley Square Kinko's all the time!) the companies now want to pay the actor a one-time fee, and then use their image, voice, expressive talent, years of training, etc in any way and as often as they please without having to pay him/her another dime. I thnk it's only being discussed for commercials at this point, but these proposed changes carry dire implications for all creative people in every field. Think of what it would be like if a record company only paid a musician an hourly wage for his/her time spent in the studio... and then could sell the resulting work for as long as they pleased and never have to pay the artist a dime of it. Anyway that's a basic summary of what I've been pondering lately as far as artists' rights are concerned, and why the piracy thing strikes me as a crucial issue to everyone. I'm probably being overly-passionate but it just seems very important to remind people that art in all forms is something we are trying to make a living from, not 'give to the world' while we starve in a ditch somewhere. Robin T who knows about starving (though not in a ditch) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 12:45:28 -0400 From: Robin Thurlow Subject: Re: Alloy: piracy issue/example Keith Stansell wrote: > An intrusting side note to my last message. I guess you could say the guy > who was selling the CD actually helped King Biscuit. > > While I was browsing the King Biscuit web site to write my previous message, > I decided to buy a Todd Rudgren concert CD for my brother and sister-in-law > as a Christmas present - they are big fans. > > I wouldn't have done that had that guy not sent the letter to Robin. > > Just goes to show ya huh. Keith... LOL!! xxxx Robin T ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 10:02:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Clayton Subject: Re: Alloy: piracy issue/example On Wed, 4 Oct 2000, Keith Stansell wrote: > I checked their web site http://www.king-biscuit.com - unfortunately no > TMDR. Perhaps we should write them and request they put it on CD. I was about to mention that I did this very thing about a year ago, Keith, but received no reply. Perhaps it's time that we ALL sent similar messages to the folks at King Biscuit to show them that they are missing an opportunity to make some bucks here! BC ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 02:25:08 +0100 From: "Diva" Subject: Re: Alloy: piracy issue/example >I also have no problem with fans sharing out-of-print material with one another >for free - some of us have shared TMDR rarities with one another here in fact - >if there's really no other way of hearing the material... and with the knowledge >that, if it ever does come available in the future, Dolby's fans would certainly >scramble to the nearest record store or internet site and buy it officially. Yes, it's not fair to make a profit out of other people's work. As far as sharing Dolby rarities, I am hoping to put something together to share with this group, but I totally agree that if I do, it should be on a non-profit basis, with the intention of allowing other fans to hear stuff rather than making a quick buck. >my image/Dave's artwork are being featured on >someone's body art site without the slightest reference or link to either of us, >and we're trying to get them to at least include Dave's name with the image) And quite right too. They should have had the courtesy to ask in the first place. One thing I wonder is - with Thomas's access to technology and knowledge of the legal issues involved, why doesn't he sell any of his back catalogue online? I would love to get live stuff, or even to get legal MP3s of stuff like his soundtracks and would be happy to pay a reasonable sum (cd level prices) for that material. And Keith is right - a Thomas Dolby dvd would be waaaaay cool, but I'm not optimistic. Thomas, if you read this, please prove me wrong! Sally diva@tn.prestel.co.uk ------------------------------ End of alloy-digest V5 #241 ***************************