From: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org (alloy-digest) To: alloy-digest@smoe.org Subject: alloy-digest V4 #299 Reply-To: alloy@smoe.org Sender: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "alloy-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. alloy-digest Saturday, November 6 1999 Volume 04 : Number 299 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Alloy: Bootlegs ["Stephen M. Tilson" ] Alloy: Bride of... ["Stephen M. Tilson" ] Re: Alloy: a quick question!... (was: Open Art - Copyright concerns) ["el] Re: Alloy: Open Art - Copyright concerns ["electrix" ] Re: Alloy: Is this thing on? ["electrix" ] Re: Alloy: Is this thing on? [Kathleen Presser ] Re: Alloy: Freeing The World One Song At A Time ["electrix" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 16:15:20 -0500 From: "Stephen M. Tilson" Subject: Alloy: Bootlegs Monya writes: > anyway, I didn't know you had to break up the file into 30 sec > increments. That was just for Cruel. > miles I don't want you to slave over my 1.5 hours of tape!!! if > you really really want to see if you can make basic adjustments, > though, they are all yours... monya It won't be that much work. Send it on. I'll put it in the queue. May take a while, though. I've got a rather full dance card these days . . . Send to: Stephen Tilson 3107 Magowan Drive Santa Rosa, CA 95405-5113 Cheers, /\/\iles-brings-the-song ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 16:15:22 -0500 From: "Stephen M. Tilson" Subject: Alloy: Bride of... +AndyJ+ wrote: > I was even amused by the yellow sticker on the back of > the Jiffy bag saying "The Post Office in the UK opened > this package for examination by Customs and have > resealed it." > I guess the drug sniffer dog had a good whiff of it... > /\/\iles... what have you been up to?!!! *grin* Darn! I *knew* I shouldn't have used *that* bag to store the CDs before shipping them out . . . But seriously, did any of our other over-seas-and-borders recipients get their packages opened by Customs? I do a fair amount of international mailing and hence my curiosity. /\/\iles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 99 14:39:38 -0800 From: "electrix" Subject: Re: Alloy: a quick question!... (was: Open Art - Copyright concerns) Robin T wrote: >Do you think it might be a precaution for the proposed 'open art' >organisations to instigate their own form of copyright within the >group.. ie, have the material "copyright 1999 (artist's name) >Open Art" ? followed by a statement along the lines of the rules you >propose for the materials' use. That way, the big boys couldn't swipe >it, put their own copyright on it & say they came up with it & that no >one else can touch it as 'Open Art' ever again. I think that this would definitely have to be instituted and, I think, a great idea. I don't believe there is any getting around the Legal ramifications of Open Art. Just because a group of individuals decide to label an artistic work Open Art it doesn't mean it would be accepted as such under the current legal system. It would automatically fall under Public Domain if it is to be contested legally within the system. The intention of sharing congenial, but society unfortunately works within legal bounds. The other thing, as Crackers mentioned, Corporate wouldn't find much value in Open Art since, even the usage of it, wouldn't compensate for the labor and resource they put into it. On the other hand, I can imagine...let's say, a popularize Open Art piece of music... ADOPTED by the Company to promote their materials. This is considered co-opting. The Record Industry does this all the time. A good example of this is in the video, movie /documentary called "Hype." This documentary displayed the cability of the media and record industry to take the Grunge scene and make it marketable. The standard operating procedure of a Record Company is to imitate a successful act. Given we have a hot and successful Open Art music, the chances of having an artist clone the material and claim it to be its original concept is not farfetched. Mind you, is not so much the fear of having someone misusing Open Art music... but adopting the style, mood, concept of the material and claiming under existing laws the legal right to do so. Although not similar but yet in contrast, when Sampling came into the music vernacular, this was a major issue to overcome. Whether this would eclipse the original Open Art artistic work remains to be seen. But just this situation alone would require legal action on someone violating Open Art work. The exact Open Art material doesn't necessarily have to used to convey the same artistic style or idiom to the public. So frankly, I see Open Art having a need for a legal base in which to operate. electrix ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 99 15:22:22 -0800 From: "electrix" Subject: Re: Alloy: Open Art - Copyright concerns Stephen wrote: >I'm going to continue as devil's advocate. Better to hear these >things from friends, eh? Better that than hearing it from the >defendant's lawyer. "The devil made me do it" huh? ;-) >I think I've understood most everything that folks have said so far >regarding Open Art [although Omar's written word can get a bit choppy >at times - no offense ;-)] Wha??? how dare you!!! :-) >What will prevent professional entertainment corporations from >reproducing, publishing, and marketing YOUR Open Art - while not >paying you one thin dime of the profits? If the music is not popular! Again, the piece has to appeal to a large audience for one of Sony's artist to cover the tune and profit. No company will spend labor and resource on something that is not viable. Also, as Robin mentioned, a Copyright procedure based on Open Art and recognized by the legal system is a possibility. Of course, this doesn't mean that a Starf...rs, Inc. (A title borrowed from Reznor's Nine Inch Nail "Fragile") can't copy the style, concept and idea... that's perfectly legal, whether a tune is Copyrighted or not. I also think most artist would rather write their own tunes and reap their reward instead of allowing for Open Art law regulation affect their creative output by cover those tunes. >They'll be making ALL the money, >with no need to even give you the time of day, or any artistic say >whatsoever in how your art is presented. Here you imply OWNERSHIP of the tune. If it is Open Art, ownership is surrendered. If I understand Crackers right, the music is FREE to take on whatever characteristic it wishes to take on as long as the originator is credited. The music can be reshape in whatever manner without input from the originator. I kinda see it as a discrete musical organism seeking its way thru the multitudes to survive and reach the ears of an audience once the originator as created and has let go of it. This obviously demands a personal detachment from the creation, something we tend to cling to when we create something. >Have I misunderstood or missed something here? Have you, Crackers, >or anyone reading along here seen a way to prevent this from >happening and yet retain the spirit of Open Art - while discarding >the notion of Copyright? I don't think Copyright conditions can be discarded. Although I think an innovative Copyright condition can be introduced in the Law books that may not conflict with the present. But then trying to pass this new submission as Law is incalculable. However, a Non-Profit organization based on Open Art is more likely to challenge the system more effectively. electrix ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 17:56:41 -0600 From: "Brian R. Gilstrap" Subject: Re: Alloy: Is this thing on? Brian Clayton wrote: > > On Thu, 4 Nov 1999, Brian R. Gilstrap wrote: > > > Hello? Hello? Are you sure this is on? I'm a software guy; this is a > > hardware problem...How do you turn up the volume on this thing? > > > > What? Oh! Hello, all... > > Just what Alloy needs, more Brians! Welcome! Mind if we call you 'Brian', just to avoid confusion? :-) > > "Understanding is a three edged sword. There's your side, there's the > > other side, and then there's the truth." --Kosh > > Hmmm, I think only the first sentence of that statement was ever > spoken by Kosh, though Capt. Sheridan attributed the whole thing to > him. This, of course, has nothing to do with Thomas Dolby. :) Indeed. But since Sheridan attributed it to Kosh, and since I didn't want to get 10,000 emails asking what it meant, I decided to go with the longer version... :-) So, to make sure I'm in the right place, this is a list where discussions (at least tangentially) relate to Thomas Dolby (Robertson) and his music, right? If not, OOPS! I will proceed with this assumption. Does anyone else find the mix of happy (some of the music) and sad (lyrics and some music) on "By Brain is Like a Sieve" to be very cool and very maddening at the same time? Thanks, Scoop - -- Brian R. Gilstrap gilstrap@inlink.com http://www.inlink.com/~gilstrap Husband and father, Tai Chi practitioner, Software architect Java developer, Macintosh User, Winnie-the-Pooh fan "Understanding is a three edged sword. There's your side, there's the other side, and then there's the truth." --Kosh ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 99 17:01:16 -0800 From: "electrix" Subject: Re: Alloy: Is this thing on? Brian wrote: >Does anyone else find the mix of happy (some of the music) and sad >(lyrics and some music) on "By Brain is Like a Sieve" to be very cool >and very maddening at the same time? Yup. The music seem to have been written in a minor key and an upbeat rhythm. Is a mix emotion thingy to me (which, btw, is a formula that made Linda Ronstadt quite popular ... sad lyrics and melody over an upbeat rhythmic feel). It is a Pop-catchy melody that clings to the memory. Although, Now I am use to "hearing" it sung by Ian Gifford (one of our member's rendition of the tune)in my head.. sorry Thomas! :-) What do you think the lyrics are about? electrix ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 17:01:49 -0800 From: Kathleen Presser Subject: Re: Alloy: Is this thing on? Scoop, About the mix of happy and sad music. I like the balance. Kate;-) Brian R. Gilstrap wrote: > Brian Clayton wrote: > > > > On Thu, 4 Nov 1999, Brian R. Gilstrap wrote: > > > > > Hello? Hello? Are you sure this is on? I'm a software guy; this is a > > > hardware problem...How do you turn up the volume on this thing? > > > > > > What? Oh! Hello, all... > > > > Just what Alloy needs, more Brians! Welcome! > > Mind if we call you 'Brian', just to avoid confusion? :-) > > > > "Understanding is a three edged sword. There's your side, there's the > > > other side, and then there's the truth." --Kosh > > > > Hmmm, I think only the first sentence of that statement was ever > > spoken by Kosh, though Capt. Sheridan attributed the whole thing to > > him. This, of course, has nothing to do with Thomas Dolby. :) > > Indeed. But since Sheridan attributed it to Kosh, and since I didn't > want to get 10,000 emails asking what it meant, I decided to go with the > longer version... :-) > > So, to make sure I'm in the right place, this is a list where > discussions (at least tangentially) relate to Thomas Dolby (Robertson) > and his music, right? If not, OOPS! > > I will proceed with this assumption. > > Does anyone else find the mix of happy (some of the music) and sad > (lyrics and some music) on "By Brain is Like a Sieve" to be very cool > and very maddening at the same time? > > Thanks, > Scoop > > -- > Brian R. Gilstrap > gilstrap@inlink.com > http://www.inlink.com/~gilstrap > Husband and father, Tai Chi practitioner, Software architect > Java developer, Macintosh User, Winnie-the-Pooh fan > > "Understanding is a three edged sword. There's your side, there's the > other side, and then there's the truth." --Kosh ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 17:05:47 -0800 From: Kathleen Presser Subject: Re: Alloy: Is this thing on? I think the lyrics are about a past relationship that was slightly abusive. It's like, even though he (Thomas) really liked the person (fictional or not) a lot that this song is about, the relationship just didn't work out. Almost sounds like this person had quite a temper and a high sense of drama. Hence the lyrics about the murder mystery. Kate;-) electrix wrote: > Brian wrote: > >Does anyone else find the mix of happy (some of the music) and sad > >(lyrics and some music) on "By Brain is Like a Sieve" to be very cool > >and very maddening at the same time? > > Yup. The music seem to have been written in a minor key and an upbeat rhythm. Is a mix emotion thingy to me (which, btw, is a formula that made Linda Ronstadt quite popular ... sad lyrics and melody over an upbeat rhythmic feel). It is a Pop-catchy melody that clings to the memory. Although, Now I am use to "hearing" it sung by Ian Gifford (one of our member's rendition of the tune)in my head.. sorry Thomas! :-) > > What do you think the lyrics are about? > > electrix ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 99 18:14:01 -0800 From: "electrix" Subject: Re: Alloy: It Came From Uranus! Crackers wrote awhile back: >Tom Waits definetly falls into the catagory of "Musical God". That guy >is absolutely brilliant. Pure genius. I bypassed a reply on this.... Yes! And he has quite a following of fans and tons of records to prove it. For inaccessible music, he certainly earns his living quite well from his work. electrix ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 20:40:51 -0600 From: "Brian R. Gilstrap" Subject: Re: Alloy: Is this thing on? electrix wrote: > > Brian wrote: > >Does anyone else find the mix of happy (some of the music) and sad > >(lyrics and some music) on "By Brain is Like a Sieve" to be very cool > >and very maddening at the same time? [snip] > What do you think the lyrics are about? I don't have the CD with me right now (loaned it to my sister just last weekend), but from memory I think the song is about this: The perspective is from someone who had a very one-sided relationship with someone. The other person claimed to be quite serious: (all lyrics from memory so likely to be somewhat wrong) "When you told me that you loved me/ told me that you cared/ that you'd be a part of me/ that you'd always be there." And the person didn't do these things and left. But the first person is still so in love with the other that they don't want to believe that the claims of love weren't real. So they would rather forget things that happened than be forced to face up to the truth: "Did you really mean to hurt me? I think you only meant to tease. ...I lost my memories" And: "My brain is like a sieve/ sometimes its easier to forget/ all the bad things you did to me" In a separate email Kathleen Presser writes: > I think the lyrics are about a past relationship that was slightly abusive. It's like, > even though he (Thomas) really liked the person (fictional or not) a lot that this song > is about, the relationship just didn't work out. Almost sounds like this person had > quite a temper and a high sense of drama. Hence the lyrics about the murder mystery. I think there was definitely some abuse going on, though I tend to imagine it being emotional abuse rather than physical (just what I get from the lyrics; I'm not trying to say that emotional abuse is less wrong or more or less serious than physical abuse). And I'm not sure about the bit about murder mysteries. The temper and drama idea is good. I'll have to relisten to the song and think more about that part of things. Anyone else with thoughts on the matter? Scoop - -- Brian R. Gilstrap gilstrap@inlink.com http://www.inlink.com/~gilstrap Husband and father, Tai Chi practitioner, Software architect Java developer, Macintosh User, Winnie-the-Pooh fan "Understanding is a three edged sword. There's your side, there's the other side, and then there's the truth." --Kosh ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 99 19:41:44 -0800 From: "electrix" Subject: Re: Alloy: Freeing The World One Song At A Time Crackers and Alloy: >What I need now is a way to express this concept in as clear, compact, >and absolute a way as possible. I'm open for suggestions. I think you have expressed it quite well. I believe all we are doing is hashing out the discrepancies. We are finding areas where it might bogged down or blossom. The way I see it, FWIW... I would create an Open Art piece of work if it didn't consume extensive labor and resources. Meaning: If I was in the studio doing Royalty work... and there was ample time and technological resource to work on a piece I considered to be "innacessible;" or, I instead I wanted to create an artistic work totally outside of my agenda where the cost to do it was insignificant, then I would release it as Open Art. If I was in Non-Profit organization, then I all I would be contributing is time. As it stands, I want to create a catalogue of musical composition that are Copyrightable since the taste of the public may miraculously sway towards my materials. Once you make a "hit," the rest of that catalogue becomes extremely valuable! No musician should ignore this concept. Especially if the tunes were to be passed down to the children. The family could gain tremendously from your effort if the music was to be "re-discovered." So yes, I would have a catalogue of Open Art and Royalty Art. The toughest part is not defining the term. The toughest part is setting up a viable vehicle to promote the concept. That can only be done by cooperative effort and well organized group. Personally, I know that if I were to gain a decent amount of cash from my Art work, I wouldn't hesitate to setup a Foundation for musician in this regard. It would not only promote Open Art, but train musicians, expand their music appreciation, and provide a databank for musicians that believe in their music but are not marketable. This would also include painters, engineers, photographers, filmmakers collaborating to make mutimedia work a reality. Presently, I have seen many interns in the industry that would likely volunteer their time to do such a thing. electrix ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 21:33:29 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) From: Brian Clayton Subject: Re: Alloy: Is this thing on? On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, Brian R. Gilstrap wrote: > > Just what Alloy needs, more Brians! Welcome! > > Mind if we call you 'Brian', just to avoid confusion? :-) As long as I'm not the Brian in charge of the sheep dip. > > > "Understanding is a three edged sword. There's your side, there's the > > > other side, and then there's the truth." --Kosh > > > > Hmmm, I think only the first sentence of that statement was ever > > spoken by Kosh, though Capt. Sheridan attributed the whole thing to > > him. This, of course, has nothing to do with Thomas Dolby. :) > > Indeed. But since Sheridan attributed it to Kosh, and since I didn't > want to get 10,000 emails asking what it meant, I decided to go with the > longer version... :-) Heh, I did use the "short" version for my .sig at work, but few bothered to ask me about it. I figured I successfully confused most people, in the spirit of Kosh (and Thomas! Just see my .sig below! :) > So, to make sure I'm in the right place, this is a list where > discussions (at least tangentially) relate to Thomas Dolby (Robertson) > and his music, right? If not, OOPS! > > I will proceed with this assumption. You have chosen...wisely. > Does anyone else find the mix of happy (some of the music) and sad > (lyrics and some music) on "By Brain is Like a Sieve" to be very cool > and very maddening at the same time? Hmm, never thought of it that way. I'll give it another spin whilst microwaving tonight's excuse for dinner and let you know... BC - --- Brian Clayton "I hope I can continue to confuse and exasperate stemish@lns.com you for a couple more decades." -- TMDR ------------------------------ End of alloy-digest V4 #299 ***************************