From: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org (alloy-digest) To: alloy-digest@smoe.org Subject: alloy-digest V4 #216 Reply-To: alloy@smoe.org Sender: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "alloy-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. alloy-digest Friday, August 6 1999 Volume 04 : Number 216 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Alloy: A simple request ["Stephen M. Tilson" ] Re: Alloy: A simple request [RThurF@aol.com] Re: Alloy: A simple request [Paul Baily ] Alloy: Lissu's last mail! ["Ulfstedt, Louise" ] Re: Alloy: List Protocol, etc. [DAbbitt32@aol.com] Re: Alloy: :-( ["Michael and Denise Luckey" ] Alloy: (no subject) [PISCESFISH@aol.com] Re: Alloy: Lissu's last mail! [RThurF@aol.com] Alloy: Re: alloy-digest V4 #215 [dalexander@juno.com] Alloy: Re: alloy-digest V4 #215 [dalexander@juno.com] Re: Alloy: Lissu's last mail! [Slarvibarglhee ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 04:57:18 -0400 From: "Stephen M. Tilson" Subject: Alloy: A simple request Dear Alloy, Again I wish to apologize to you for the formal and serious tone in my last message under this header. It was a very unpleasant thing to write and post to this group of normally convivial friends, but I felt it was necessary. I hope that perhaps you might appreciate that I haven't resorted to scat-flinging or angry outbursts in our current episode of "As the Stomach Churns". ;-) I also sincerely hope that Robin will find it within herself to bury the hatchet, professionally at least, and perhaps just ignore my posts in the future. I do not wish to be part of any controversy or disruption to Alloy, and will resume a non-confrontational posture immediately upon closing here, except as outlined in my previous message. Recent events here have, of course, angered and hurt me deeply. I have toyed with unsubbing repeatedly, and any number of possible responses to the attacks I have endured, but the truth is I don't wish to leave Alloy and would only do so with deep regret and sadness. Alloy has become, in so many ways, a very real part of my life; one that I have found very rewarding and enriching. To leave would be to have a part of me die, and I'm not quite ready for that, thank you very much. So, if we can, I ask that we really try to put the past where it belongs. I can, and will. For the group. For Thomas. And for my relentless pursuit of productive and pleasurable communion with like-minded souls. From the heart, Stephen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 05:09:08 -0400 From: "Stephen M. Tilson" Subject: Alloy: "12 X 12 Original Remixes" Getting back to our regularly scheduled programming . . . I hold in my hand the new Thomas Dolby release (!!!) - "12x12 Original Remixes". This package is published by EMI, made in England, and carries the EMI catalog number 7243 5 21194 2 4. Here, in the USA, I paid $18 for it. The graphics package is very nice. The disc is printed to look like an LP. The two-fold booklet main image is a collage of artwork from the various albums and singles, promo photos, and fonts that we associate with TMDR. The tray liner continues this theme on the outside, and when you remove the disc the clear disc bed reveals another image of an LP underneath - this time with a tone arm (remember those?) at the end of track two on a six track side. It's a great looking package; each of the images calling to mind some bit of TMDR's history as a musician. The track documentation follows this format: Title, sub-title, time, author(s), publisher, producer, copyright date and owner, and how the track was originally released by label, format, and catalog number. Sadly, there is no commentary whatsoever, nor is credit given to the myriad artists who contributed to this snapshot of the Dolby cannon. The tracks are presented in approximate chronological order. About half of these tracks were not previously available in digital format. It's a pleasure to have them arranged here in a convenient package with no pops, clicks, or other anomalies to interrupt the flow of music. While this may not be appropriate for The Who's "Live at Leeds" , I find it entirely appropriate for Thomas' technologically-based productions. As the track listing was previously posted I won't parrot it here, but there is one glaring departure from what you might expect: The title of track 6 is listed as "Get Out Of Mix" in all three locations that contain track listings! Whaddya know, we've had it wrong all these years . . . Go out and buy two today! /\/\iles ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 12:50:40 +0300 From: "Ulfstedt, Louise" Subject: RE: Alloy: I got a job! (Non-Dolby related) Hi Jamac! Great news! Hope the new job turns out to be 100% better than the previous one!! Lissu :-) > -----Original Message----- > From: dalexander@juno.com [SMTP:dalexander@juno.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 11:22 PM > To: alloy@smoe.org > Subject: Alloy: I got a job! (Non-Dolby related) > > > Well, it's funny how life goes. Seems those who go through the most > trouble and try the hardest to do what's right usually end up the > victors. > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 13:09:48 +0100 From: "I T Admin @ Govt Office North West" Subject: [none] unsubscribe alloy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 08:44:45 EDT From: RThurF@aol.com Subject: Re: Alloy: A simple request Sigh. In a message dated 8/5/99 12:00:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Stephen_Tilson@compuserve.com writes: :: I hereby request and require that you immediately cease and desist from attacks on my person and from publishing any further public calumnies regarding my character and actions in any regard. If you persist in slandering me I will consider further action. You may of course say what you will in private, but I will not tolerate this behavior in a public forum without defending myself vigorously. :: You may certainly defend yourself however you wish, Stephen. People are allowed to speak freely and truthfully here about this and whatever else they wish. I still don't know if I have done precisely the right thing (re: protocol) by admitting we were having a disagreement, and that it was still causing tensions, but I thought everyone here deserved an explanation since my frustration with you was beginning to show, and also, so many members wrote to ask about Mary's mysterious departure. The fact that it even had to get to that level is something that I do regret. It's hard to have put so much effort into protecting something, and then have it turn out to have been in vain. I would have prefered to have kept this matter utterly private and have it go away, but it didn't. You speak of slander... but take your dictionary and look. It says 'slander' is a false report. Nothing I have ever said or alluded to about you or our argument is false. The only person being slandered by you and by Mary is myself, it seems. Robin T ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 22:56:55 +1000 From: Paul Baily Subject: Re: Alloy: A simple request Dear Stephen, >I hereby request and require that you immediately cease and desist >from attacks on my person and from publishing any further public >calumnies regarding my character and actions in any regard. If you >persist in slandering me I will consider further action. Calumnies, indeed? I'm sorry, I mean no less respect than you deserve sir, but you really do make me laugh. I ask _you_ to cease and desist. And unlike Robin, be very sure that I will only ask this once. Though I would not lightly transgress Robin's ownership of this list, I still retain executive rights on this list (because Robin entrusts me with them) and will exercise them if you persist in trying to manipulate the good people in it's membership and twist Alloy's spirit. You and I both know that you're trying to pull the wool over peoples' eyes, presenting just a fraction of the facts. Please. Stop this. Think a moment about what you're suggesting. You're accusing Robin of defaming your character and yet you attempt to do the same in what you refer to as a 'public' forum. >You may of course say what you will in private, but I will not >tolerate this behavior in a public forum without defending myself >vigorously. Sir, if I may I'll correct you. This is *NOT* a public forum. No first amendment protections apply. Neither you nor I can claim a RIGHT to be here, and you cannot use this 'pubic' word as an excuse to say what you like without consideration of others who have offered you so much. Think of this much like your favourite watering hole (Aust. colloq.: bar), that's not a public space either: though like here you're welcome to be yourself and have a good time, but if you cause others grief, you will be shown the door. Is that unreasonable? I think not. Think of it as cause and effect. We are here because we want to be here, because we want to spend time with good friends, to be ourselves. But we are guests. We are here at Robin's discretion. Why do you think I thought so carefully about who could take over Alloy? Despite what judgements you may make in your mind (and remember that judgements blind), I do not for a _second_ regret Robin taking over Alloy. In many ways she has embraced the spirit of Alloy with more grace and patience than I ever could. By now I'm guessing you've already read the message I sent to Mary (case in point) and several others on this topic, in fact I'm guessing that is what evoked this what I must describe as bizzare message from you. I also am of the opinion that you forced a very good friend of ours, the one and only Europa, to leave a place she loves for your benefit. Would that we all knew someone who would place your wants above her own. The difference is that most of us wouldn't exploit this as you seem to have. Sir, though I know you consider yourself a senior member of Alloy, and though your contributions have been undoubtedly valuable (and I'm grateful to you for them) - you still have so much to learn about what Alloy really stands for. And you have much to learn about honesty, sincerety, and fundamental respect. Try to reconcile what you attempt to 'publicly' depict here, with the truth that you, I and at least two others know. A thoughtful silence would be a respected answer here. You want what we Australians call a fair go. To get that, you need to give others the same, and you need to not to try to manipulate and insinuate. In short you need to be genuine in your faith in others, and to not attempt to unfairly undermine others simply because they don't fit your private agenda. So, I present you with two choices: 1. Prove me wrong. Show us all that you're a better person than I've been resigned (through empirical evidence) to think you are. Show us that you can be a valued part of this list without trying to convince people that every good idea was your idea. There is a difference between championing a cause (admirable) and claiming it as your own (not so admirable.) Show us that you can behave like a civilised, mature person and provide valuable insite on this list without trying to pass yourself off as something you're not. But if you choose to stay, remember two things: 1) superficially civilised words do not make up for an uncivilised nature, 2) humilty, sincerety, and a truly open mind are priceless. These are valued here. or, and I sincerely hope you won't take this easy way out; 2. Leave. Or continue to behave this way and be shown the door. Forcibly if necessary. Though Robin's patience and tolerance has been near infinite, mine is not nearly as infinite. I have a very definite limit to tolerating good, decent people, good friends, being unjustly maligned or if you will, calumniated. I have watched and listened for a long while: you have reached that limit. So, as mentioned before you have a choice to make. So what's it to be? To paraphrase a line from the film The American President, if you want to undermine someone, come after me. Don't even try it with Robin, because believe me, you're not in her class. One day I sincerely hope you realise how much she has selflessly given to this list, how hard she has worked at maintaining it. Would that you would have seen past your own agenda a moment to see this. >I hope I make myself clear. As do I, sir. As do I. >PS I apologize to the Alloyed at large for this intrusion, but I > perceive it as a pro forma necessity to make the foregoing a part > of the public record at this time. I'd like to echo Stephen's apology here I would have done anything other than bare teeth on Alloy again had I the choice but I could not - will not - tolerate unjust and unfounded comments like this being made on the list. If you know me at all you'll know I would not have done such a thing had I a choice. My sincere apologies, good people. Let's move beyond this shall we? Stephen, it's up to you. Is my next message going to be a 'glad you're still with us' message to the list, or a short, sharp series of admin commands to the list's server? Think grace. Grow a little. Listen. Learn. best, Paul. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 16:16:04 +0300 From: "Ulfstedt, Louise" Subject: Alloy: Lissu's last mail! Jesus,....!!! As much as I have always considered all of (Stephen, Mary & Robin, Paul etc.) as dear friends, I have to say that this bickering is getting totally out of hand. I thought you were the kind of sweet, sympathetic people who could have sorted this all out in a more adult manner (I know it's terribly rude coming from someone younger than those concerned, but try and see this from the outsiders point of view.) I'm personally beginning to think that all of you should have kept this entire mess outside of Alloy, and frankly, I'm past the point of caring WHOSE fault any of this is (I refuse to take sides anyway, I care about all of those concerned), but I would have thought that those of you concerned could have tried harder to resolve your differences (yes, REALLY tried) rather than carrying on the bickering in this arena. It's appalling! Now you are loosing your old and faithful subscribers (as you may have noticed, Slarvi just unsubscribed, and I am thinking of doing the same.) Don't you think that the fighting should stop NOW before Alloy self-destructs over this?!!! Is this argument really worth the effect it's having? This is an adult forum for friends with a common interest, and despite my aversion to "rules" and such like, I think anyone can see that this whole thing has gone way over the top. And there is the small matter of the 77 or so other alloyites getting their mailboxes filled with all of this. And I'm pretty sure Thomas doesn't want to read this. I believe that personal criticism of the kind that has been seen over the last few days (for which all of you concerned are responsible) has no place here,...and if the four of you can't sort this out, then I just don't want to continue. Lissu (totally, utterly miserable at loosing her community of friends) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 06:48:40 -0700 From: Peter Fitzpatrick Subject: Alloy: :-( unsubscribe ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 12:08:30 EDT From: DAbbitt32@aol.com Subject: Re: Alloy: List Protocol, etc. In a message dated 8/4/99 5:50:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Kathleen.McClelland@online.disney.com guessed: << Dabbitt has such a sense of humor, I knew he'd get a kick out of that little remark. >> My sense of humor has been greatly exaggerated. - -Dabbitt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 13:26:04 -0700 From: "Michael and Denise Luckey" Subject: Re: Alloy: :-( At the risk of butting in let me say I find it sad to see several folks leaving Alloy over a series of posts involving an internal quarrel. I argue from time to time with my wife, best friends, sister, coworkers, and even my mother! It's all part of being human since we're not perfect and shouldn't try to pretend to be. To unsubscribe from a list over a matter like this leaves me baffled since I ponder what we would do in everyday troublesome matters-run and pretend all of our worries will disappear? I think in a way it's good to have these problems and show our "human" sides as in the end Alloy will not crumble but emerge stronger from the test of its' unity. For those that remain I hope we'll all settle down and realize that the storm on Alloy has passed and there are sunny skies ahead! M. Luckey - -----Original Message----- From: Peter Fitzpatrick To: 'alloy@smoe.org' ; 'alloy-request@smoe.org' Date: Thursday, August 05, 1999 6:55 AM Subject: Alloy: :-( > >unsubscribe ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 14:22:38 EDT From: PISCESFISH@aol.com Subject: Alloy: (no subject) unsubscribe ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 14:47:24 EDT From: RThurF@aol.com Subject: Re: Alloy: Lissu's last mail! In a message dated 8/5/99 9:24:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, louise.ulfstedt@teleste.com writes: :: I'm personally beginning to think that all of you should have kept this entire mess outside of Alloy, and frankly, I'm past the point of caring WHOSE fault any of this is (I refuse to take sides anyway, I care about all of those concerned), but I would have thought that those of you concerned could have tried harder to resolve your differences (yes, REALLY tried) rather than carrying on the bickering in this arena. It's appalling! :: I'm sincerely sorry to have made you - and everyone else - upset. I know it's appalling. Please believe me, I really, really, REALLY tried, but ultimately kept ending up in the same place in the matter. I also agree, our bickering has got to stop, and the sooner the better. I appreciate people voicing their concerns & making their feelings known, whatever they may be. I apologise for my putting all of you in a position of having to witness it. Having this matter appear on Alloy was the absolute last thing I wanted. Handling it privately was not getting it resolved to anywhere near my satisfaction, and frankly, it's driving me nuts, and has been on my mind for far too long. I just really, really needed to get it out and (hopefully) get rid of the situation for good. I hope you'll forgive me for having introduced this subject on Alloy in the first place. It's really hard to talk about because I have no intention of mentioning any specifics of the argument, so it doubtlessly sounds very strange, and for that I also apologise. I knew that I would lose the respect of cherished Alloy members for mentioning this conflict. I knew that some people would probably unsubscribe over it. But the fact is that given the situation, it was eventually going to affect the list anyway no matter what I did. I apologise for the disruption in Stephen's life but for me, it's been a more-than-year-long disruption that needs to end. Stephen has always been very well-liked at Alloy and has many friends here who would miss him if he were to go... and who aren't going to care about some silly ass argument with the owner of the list. I have never had any quarrel with Mary and in fact had exchanged very pleasant emails with her only two months ago. I frankly have no idea where her reaction to this has come from. As I have said in private emails to Stephen, this has nothing to do with Mary, and I wanted to keep her out of it. I'm very happy to say that everyone who has written to me privately about this problem has done so to simply voice their concerns about everyone involved. I'm grateful to all of you for being true to yourselves as the intelligent, strong, and mature people I've always known here at Alloy. Just because one of the people involved in an argument is the list owner, and the other is a long-term and well-respected member, doesn't mean it has to turn into a matter of taking sides. Besides which, about 99% of people here don't even know or want to know what the argument is about... and anyone who would take sides without knowing the facts of the matter is not someone I would want on my 'side' anyway. :: Now you are loosing your old and faithful subscribers (as you may have noticed, Slarvi just unsubscribed, and I am thinking of doing the same.) Don't you think that the fighting should stop NOW before Alloy self-destructs over this?!!! Is this argument really worth the effect it's having? :: I think the fighting should have stopped a very long time ago. The turmoil my revealing it has caused will hopefully only be temporary. I knew there would be turmoil on the list resulting from this, and I had been so paralysed by that fact, that I couldn't do anything about it. There was no way out of it other than straight through. My fears of how bad it would be if this were revealed were far worse than it has turned out to be (though it is bad to have arguments spilling onto the list, regardless, and I don't recommend it... :( BTW Slarvi is still on the list, just under a different account... he's written a very kind letter to me to reassure me about the situation. We all hope this is over with soon. Again, to everyone, I apologise. It's been very difficult knowing what is best to do. Robin T ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 11:51:58 -0600 From: dalexander@juno.com Subject: Alloy: Re: alloy-digest V4 #215 CJMark@aol.com wrote... >Congrats Dennis!! > >When a door closes.. a window always opens.. Yeah, just make sure it's not too far to the ground before you jump through... ___________ JAMac (Dennis S. Alexander) www.dennisa.com - Nutrition/Income Opportunities "The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams" - Eleanor Roosevelt ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 11:46:55 -0600 From: dalexander@juno.com Subject: Alloy: Re: alloy-digest V4 #215 Slarv wrote... >> but I dare say that if I met them all, there would be some that I might take an instant disliking to. Dabbit wrote.. >Are you going to name names? I mean, you can't drop a dime like that one and not name names! Ooh, ooh! A slap fight! Yeah! Bring on the Jello! er... wait. I just got an image of Slarv and Dabbit in, um, never mind... ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 00:28:10 +0100 From: Slarvibarglhee Subject: Re: Alloy: Lissu's last mail! "Ulfstedt, Louise" wrote: > > Now you are loosing your old and faithful subscribers (as you may have > noticed, Slarvi just unsubscribed, and I am thinking of doing the same.) > Don't you think that the fighting should stop NOW before Alloy > self-destructs over this?!!! Is this argument really worth the effect it's > having? Before anyone else bails, possibly thinking I was making some kind of statement by my departure, just a quick note to clarify that I have NOT unsubscribed, I just want to let you know I simply unsubscribed from an account I will not have access to for much longer, and have already subscribed from THIS address. I didn't intend my unsubscribe message to be seen by anyone, I just sent it to the wrong address, and I couldn't have made that mistake at a worse moment. I have no intention of unsubscribing because of Steven and Robin's disagreement; it's a passing event and will be forgotten soon enough........ I hope ;0) . There have been other rows of one kind or another in the past, but THEY all blew over as well. Slarv ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 19:42:43 EDT From: CJMark@aol.com Subject: Re: Alloy: :-( Here Here.. Michael. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 19:48:05 EDT From: CJMark@aol.com Subject: Re: Alloy: Lissu's last mail! Whew!! Thanks for clarifying your unsubscribe note.. Slarv.. When I saw you had sent that.. I felt there probably wasn't much hope for Alloy survival. It came as a great relief to find that you were only changing addresses..! I look forward to your reports from afar.. Ciao for now.. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 19:53:47 -0600 From: "Keith Stansell" Subject: Re: Alloy: I got a job! (Now-Dolby related) Hey, congradulations Dennis! At least this time you know exactly what the job is you are getting into and who you will we working for! Great for you. I'm glad you got the new job, I'm not sure if I want to buy those Symmetry supplements again next month ; ) Now you can go out and buy 12 x 12 ! (Dolby content). - -Keith - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 3:21 PM Subject: Alloy: I got a job! (Non-Dolby related) > > Well, it's funny how life goes. Seems those who go through the most > trouble and try the hardest to do what's right usually end up the > victors. > > The client I worked for just before my last terrible job, is hiring me! > I worked there for 3 months and was offered a position, but the position > I wanted was filled and he couldn't take me on as a tech for the pay I > was asking for. So I finished my contract and went on to the place that > eventually fired me. Well, that position I wanted at the first company > is now available! > > My new boss, Shane, is hiring me at more than what I was offered at the > looser company! Now, what's funny is that what was offered and what was > actually paid at the looser company were $3K a year apart! Yeah, the > idiot promised me a certain pay that he wasn't even allowed to offer! > Not only that, but the first time Shane and I talked about employment I > told hime a range that was $2-5K less than what he's hiring me at! He > called the contract company he first brought me in through (modis) and > told them he wanted to hire me so all the negotiations are being handled > by 'modis' which has worked out great for me! She was able to ask for > the larger pay for me and got it! > > At the in-between company, the boss not only promised me wages he > couldn't deliver, but he also didn't know how to listen, couldn't > remember anything I told him, never managed in a corporate environment, > failed to follow through on things he told me he would do and many other > things. Not only that, but they had computer users who did nothing but > complain and blame, including the executive staff! > > However, I already know the company that I'm going to. I worked there > for 3 months, only 3 months ago. Shane doesn't interrupt, he listens, he > remembers, knows what he's doing and can manage people, projects and time > very well. Not only that but everyone loved me at this job and couldn't > understand why Shane was letting me go the first time. > > I think I'll be quite happy, thank you. > ___________ > JAMac (Dennis S. Alexander) > www.dennisa.com - Nutrition/Income Opportunities > "The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams" - > Eleanor Roosevelt > > ___________________________________________________________________ > Get the Internet just the way you want it. > Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! > Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 22:56:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Cracknell Subject: Alloy: Jeeze Louise! Wow, a guy takes some time off the internet to get a little home renovations done and everything goes ka-blooie! I don't know who pissed in whose wheaties or who twisted whose nipples first but to be honest I don't really care. I haven't read any of the e-mails that the fighting took place in, just all the recent nasty afterbits. I don't want to know what the fight was all about, that will just make things worse. If anyone wants some advice feel free to pick and choose from what I've got to offer. Always remember that everything in print always sounds much more severe than the author likely intended it to sound. Subtle jokes can be misunderstood as insults without vocal inflections and body language to back them up. Sometimes even a poorly worded compliment can come off as a sarcastic put-down. Never stay mad at someone over one disagreement. I can't tell you how many fewer dear friends I would have now adays if I had let one knock down, drag out row get inbetween our friendship. Sometimes a little time apart to cool things off is just the ticket and will help you gain perspective on the whole thing. Someone would really REALLY have to screw me around before I'd end a friendship. Never be afraid to be the first one to say "I'm sorry." I can't tell you how many fewer dear friends I would have if I didn't have the courage to realize when I've been an ass and to apologise for it. Friendship is more valuable than pride. Even an apology over things you feel are trivial and unimportant may mean a lot to the other party. And don't try to work "the last word" into your apology. Just say you're sorry. When someone offers you an apology then accept it graciously, don't try to work "the last word" into your acceptance. When you offer an apology and/or accept an apology don't bring the matter up again. This includes when people ask you, "What was that fight all about?" Chances are by explaining what started the fight you'll just end up starting it all over again. When someone asks what started it just say, "It doesn't matter, the issue has been resolved." Never be afraid to "agree to disagree". Just because you can't make the other person see things your way it doesn't mean you can't be friends. I probably have more things I disagree about with my friends than I have things I agree about. When you "agree to disagree" consider it to be the same as an apology where no one actually says, "I'm sorry." Use the same rule reguarding not bringing the matter up again. There are plenty of other things one can find to fight about instead. Never be afraid to just ignore someone while they're being a prick. I can't tell you how many fewer dear friends I would have if they didn't have the ability to just ignore me when I'm being a prick. When a dear friend is being a prick, just ignore them until they get it out of their system. Friendships are important. To me, friendships are the way in which I measure my wealth (mostly because I don't have a lot of material wealth, and if I did I'd buy and sell all your sorry asses and crush you like insects! Like INSECTS I tell you!!! MUWAA-HA-HA-HA-HAAAAaaaaa!!!). They're your most important asset and if you're really one of the lucky ones you'll find your really bestest friend in the whole wide world and marry her/him. Now like I said, feel free to pick and choose from any of the advice I've just offered or, if you'd rather, just ignore me until I've stopped being a prick. It's my hope that given a little cooling-off time the parties involved will realize that friendship is more important than any arguement and everyone will come back together and things will go on happily ever after. Or maybe everyone will just become bitter, disgruntled civil servents who go home every night and rant about the problems of the world to their ceramic cats. Either way I win. If everything eventually works out then I get to bask in the warmth of their friendship. If it doesn't then I can sell them all these damn ceramic cats my Great Aunte Mira left me in her will. I've said my bit, and I'm done with it. CRACKERS (Free ceramic hairballs from hell!!) - -- Collector of Atari 2600 carts - Accordionist - Bira Bira Devotee - Anime fan * http://www.hwcn.org/~ad329/crab.html | Crackers' Arts Base * * http://www.angelfire.com/ma/hozervideo/index.html | Hozer Video Games * Nihongo ga dekimasu - 2600 programmer - Father of 2 great kids - Canadian eh ------------------------------ End of alloy-digest V4 #216 ***************************