From: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org (alloy-digest) To: alloy-digest@smoe.org Subject: alloy-digest V4 #122 Reply-To: alloy@smoe.org Sender: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "alloy-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. alloy-digest Saturday, April 24 1999 Volume 04 : Number 122 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: Alloy: worst fears (off-topic, and then I too will shut up) ["Ulfsted] Alloy: point of view, fitting in, and Dolby page questions at the end :) [RThurF@aol.co] Alloy: Survivor's Guilt (off-topic) [dalexander@juno.com] Alloy: Goth and Thomas (and much off-topic banter) [dalexander@juno.com] Re: Alloy: Colorado (off-topic) [Kathleen Truelove Subject: RE: Alloy: worst fears (off-topic, and then I too will shut up) >Lissu, even in your seemingly safe community there are probably a number of people who are capable of >doing these monstrous deeds. I thought Tasmania was the quietest and safest place in the world until a >young man named Martin Bryant went on a rampage in September 1994 killing 35 people and wounding 21. >As part of the Police here in Tassie I had the misfortune of having to attend the scene(s) of these brutal >slayings. So sorry to hear that John, and unfortunately you are quite right. A few months ago in Helsinki, a woman went bezerk at the gun club she belonged to, killing three men. The woman, who was already unstable, had been raped, and took her "revenge" on the nearest men to her. A terrible tragedy. In the past, I've been relieved by people's reaction to this sort of thing here, as this kind of event is something that shocks the whole nation, and been happy that this kind of occurrence is very rare here. What I hated when I lived in London was that this kind of thing didn't have the same news value it does here because killings happened so often. I think there's only been a couple of such events since I moved here 7 years ago. BUT, on the other hand, the authorities in Finland are still so racist that a stabbing to death of a foreigner in our town a few years ago was hardly even mentioned by the local press,...the local police wanted it kept quiet. Students from the university marched in protest, but noticeably, the rape of a Finnish girl by a foreigner made front page news some time later. A Stephen Lawrence-type occurrence here would probably never even reach the media,...Thank god they're taking new measures to stamp out racism in the police force here. So, I agree, John, it can and does happen anywhere, and Scandinavia isn't paradise in this respect,...just a bit safer, and without any real poverty & run down inner city areas. The downside is having to avoid speaking a foreign language in queues for outdoor grills after closing time over here. Speaking of upbringing, lately I've been thinking about the one concept my grandmother drummed into me as a kid, a concept that I think can change the world if only everybody could "get it". Simply put, it is "Treat others as you want to be treated yourself". So simple,...what a shame so many violent & cruel people just don't find it so. Let's hope no reprisals against our genuine Goth friends happen. Have a wonderful weekend, all! Lissu "now I WILL REALLY shut up" of the north! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:46:42 EDT From: RThurF@aol.com Subject: Alloy: point of view, fitting in, and Dolby page questions at the end :) In a message dated 4/23/99 7:20:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, louise.ulfstedt@teleste.fi writes: :: Speaking of upbringing, lately I've been thinking about the one concept my grandmother drummed into me as a kid, a concept that I think can change the world if only everybody could "get it". Simply put, it is "Treat others as you want to be treated yourself". So simple,...what a shame so many violent & cruel people just don't find it so. :: It is a shame. The major factor in violence and cruelty, though, is that the criminal does not see those he/she hurts as being quite 'human', or in anyway similar to him or her self... in order for them to take such wise advice to heart, they would first need to be convinced that others do have feelings that can be hurt, families who love them, and a unique point of view that would be forever gone from the world if the individual were to vanish from it. 'Do unto others..' only seems to stick in certain minds if the 'others' are exactly like themselves (where racism & nationalism comes into play). But to real 100% sociopaths, nobody else has any point of view but themselves. There is an interesting sort of mirroring of the dehumanization of others socially, when one group of people singles out another as not belonging with them. One sort of dehumanization can spark another & this is evident in every stage of the way with this recent Colorado tragedy. I have seen this before and observed it happening. For instance as I've mentioned, Dave and I were both teased by jocks/'popular' kids in our own schools. I think I may have been more hurt by it than he was though, because growing up I had always been a really friendly & cheerful kid throughout grade school & had everyone as a friend... it was only when we got to around age 11 that I began not 'fitting in' as much socially (as in, I wasn't suddenly exclusively interested in hairstyles, designer clothing & boys, and the interests that I did have were thought of as weird, and to make matters worse I was not thought of as physically attractive or feminine at all) & my beloved friends turned their backs on me one by one until I didn't have anyone left at all. Dave, on the other hand, was never liked at school at the beginning (he was very small and shy, with bottle-thick glasses) and therefore had never had the rug pulled out from under him like I did. Because of this he saw his being singled out merely as a quirk of society at the time, not as any loss to himself personally, and he remains refreshingly objective about the whole situation. Whereas it seemed to me that nobody liked me & I felt everyone thought I was a freak, but Dave points out that probably only one or two people really didn't like me anymore... and the rest just followed along with them... not out of any strong opinion one way or another, but simply to 'fit in' (there's that term again, which psychologists are flinging around as so important for kids to do!!) But then an interesting thing happened. Being socially isolated & actually kicked around both physically & emotionally, and treated like a non-human, of course made rather an impression on me so that by the time I got to high school it was hard for me to see my former chums as particularly human either, which honestly felt to me like my heart was being torn out when I realized this. I know the value of humanity & was taught to respect all living creatures, especially by my dad who'd seen the devastation of Hitler's regime first hand & taught me very carefully about the tragedies that can occur when one is not watchful. I thought if my own mind could be turned like this (and I'm the last person who would ever have had a violent thought) then what of all the others who may have different natures, or not as much awareness of the insidious manner in which evil begets evil and can turn a person into a reflection of his own repressors? This is what I see as having happened in Colorado... the two killers were picked on, then through the workings of their immature minds & influence of their Nazi friends they struck back and devastated a community & indeed the world as well, and now the world is up in arms against whatever caused this (those who have different tastes in clothing, music etc..) All of it madness. It needs to be cut off at the source with better social & sensitivity training for children from the very start. Also, may I say that my involvement with the arts in high school brought me back to the point where I had friends I truly loved & trusted again, knowledge of an ages-old, global community that is focused on beauty, the intellect, and communication, and a creative outlet to express my feelings about what I had been put through by my childhood peers. Yet another reason, on top of all the other piled-up reasons, for keeping the arts alive in public schools around the country. Could these two kids in Colorado have been saved if they had gotten involved with creative writing, theater, etc to vent their hostilities? Could they have put their intelligence and passion into works of art? I don't know the specifics of their academic lives... but I do personally know a lot of people who feel their own lives were saved by art, music, and theater programs beginning at school. Including a kid who used to build bombs, who became a wonderful and very safe special-effects/pyrotechnics expert after becoming involved with theater in high school. Anyway, I didn't want this to be another Dolby-less rant on my part, so I wanted to add that all of my pictures are scanned in & I'm preparing to write up the text for my future Dolby page. I wonder if anyone out there can fill me in on some hard-to-find information I haven't come across yet in my research. Namely, does anyone have any specifics on Dolby's involvement with Bruce Woolley & Camera Club (how did they get together?) Any information on his work in Rockula (how did he become involved, any details of the making of the film?) How it was arranged for him to compose the music for Gothic or Mind's Eye? If anyone can help me fill in these blank spots, I will give you credit on that section as a contributor. Thanks for any help in advance! Robin T (very excited at having the page up soon!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 08:51:27 -0600 From: dalexander@juno.com Subject: Alloy: Survivor's Guilt (off-topic) Every time I looked at Milena, I was haunted by this awful feeling almost of "survivor's guilt." I wondered how was it that I got to sit and hold my precious baby in peace and prosperity, while other mothers not too different from me had to watch helplessly as their children died of exposure or were hurt or killed by thugs or shelling? You're an American. Your freedom was bought with the blood of a *great* deal of patriot lives. In this world, you either die under oppression or you have to die to (hopefully, but not always) get freedom for others. I would like to think that I've found the answers to all of this but I don't think most people here would appreciate me spouting off my religious belifs, so I won't. ... But consider this; by far, the vast majority of people on this earth simply want to live their lives in peace, raise a family that can be respected in the community and die at an old age, satisfied. ___________ JAMac (Dennis S. Alexander) www.dennisa.com - Nutrition/Income Opportunities "The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams" - Eleanor Roosevelt ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 08:45:02 -0600 From: dalexander@juno.com Subject: Alloy: Goth and Thomas (and much off-topic banter) Here's a thought; Thomas did the soundtrack for Gothic, right? Now could Thomas ever be matched up with any of these labels/words? Nazi, Trenchcoat Mafia, Natural Born Killers, guns, etc? No Way! I think people are just so upset that they're trying to find anyone to blame since the killers are already dead without a trial. By the way, my sister was wondering where that store was. She's been trying to find a good Goth store... (and she's not even Goth). I'm still going to buy me a long leather trenchcoat when I finally get the money, but by then, everyone will have forgotten about this. And I love black, simply because it really makes my pale skin look good. "This too, shall pass." >at least two of my friends would be targeted because they liked Deckard's coat in the film Bladerunner and bought similar ones! ...and he was a cop! While we're at it... The Matrix is a huge hit movie and the news media has been showing (in particular) the government lobby scene where trenchcoats are flying and guns are blazing. Nevermind that Neo and Trinity are the good guys. My best friend loves black trenchcoats (he's very striking in them), is into martial arts, was on a Highlander stint for a few years (even buying a sword which his wife made him get rid of), had a dark sense of humor (sometimes I wondered), was always picked on (mostly for his ego) and loved shoot-em-up movies. Yet I could never, ever see this guy doing something like that. He hasn't the heart for such base grossness. >Assuming that Goths are Nazis because a couple of bogus Goths behaved that way, is like assuming I'm a Nazi because I'm part German. Why not? Americans encamped the Japanese in WWII, simply because they were Japanese. Anyway, I'm mostly German, so I must really be a Nazi (even though my fiancee is black). OH MY GOODNESS!! MY FIANCE IS BLACK!!! DOES THAT MEAN SHE'S ONE OF THEM TOO!!!!! Darn it! Now I can't wear blue, red, pink or black! For CRYING OUT LOUD! LEAVE MY WARDROBE ALONE!!!! I agree with Slarv as well. It's like the Witchhunt of Salem. Science has shown that a mold parcular to barley that hasn't been stored correctly creates the same kind of behavior exibited by all those blamed as witches. Except I think I would still support the gin lobby myself. ;-) Gotta have a good drink every once in a while. In other words ... people will always be narrow-minded dolts and follow whatever whim is thrown their way because they are too LAZY (there's that word again) to educate themselves and would rather stereotype. It's easier than facing reality. Aaaannnndddd..... the media had to find something (read 'anything') they could report on. How else would they get their paychecks? Well, I'm off to my job interview wearing my black wool trenchcoat and black cowboy hat (it's snowing out side). Maybe the hat will be the tip off that I'm ok. ___________ JAMac (Dennis S. Alexander) www.dennisa.com - Nutrition/Income Opportunities "The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams" - Eleanor Roosevelt ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 09:27:02 -0700 From: Kathleen Truelove Subject: Re: Alloy: Colorado (off-topic) Beth, I totally know what you mean Beth! This world of ours is dangerous in its own way. We just don't see it all the time. I have two sons that live with my ex husband and I worry about them often. It's not easy being a parent in any age or century. I have often pondered upon the injustices of our world. I do not have any answers except people are good and people are evil. It's up to the individual what to be. The end of your email put a tear in my eye. What a poignant phrase! Pax Aye, Kate:-) Beth Meyer wrote: > Hi, folks; > > Well, perhaps I should apologize for adding to an already way off-topic > thread, but oh well -- at least the subject line allows those who are > uninterested to identify it and skip reading it. But there was a remark > that I just had to comment on: > > Robin wrote: > >The horror that all parents of school-age children must be feeling now, > >doubtlessly worrying that such a thing can happen in their own community, > and > > Well, you can omit that "of school-age" phrase there and still be pretty > accurate. I suspect that all the other parents on the list know this too, > but I found that having a baby really turned my emotional world upside down. > Specifically, there was so much horror in the world that I was able to > bravely face before, that now is just too painful to bear. It seems to be > the flip side of having so much love for a little one. It hit me especially > hard because, as I was spending long hours in the rocking chair feeding my > newborn, I had the radio tuned to NPR and would hear some four hours of news > every day, plus updates every hour. As the horror stories from Kosovo > started to pile in, I would hear accounts of the terrible suffering and > death of innocent people, including children, and just weep. Every time I > looked at Milena, I was haunted by this awful feeling almost of "survivor's > guilt." I wondered how was it that I got to sit and hold my precious baby > in peace and prosperity, while other mothers not too different from me had > to watch helplessly as their children died of exposure or were hurt or > killed by thugs or shelling? I was getting so depressed that Mark finally > had to insist that I shut off the news and listen to CDs instead. And just > when it seemed to be safe to listen to the news again, this happened just on > the other side of town. I guess it served to remind me that even this > feeling that my own child is safe is somewhat illusory. So anyway, I'm > spending an awful lot of time these days holding Milena close (not that I > wouldn't anyway, but you know what I mean). > > The line that comes to mind is, "How could a hand as gentle as yours soften > a hard nut like this one?" Consider this hard nut softened... > > --Beth > > Beth Meyer > bethmeyer@mindspring.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 14:23:01 EDT From: RThurF@aol.com Subject: Re: Alloy: Goth and Thomas (and much off-topic banter) In a message dated 4/23/99 10:56:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dalexander@juno.com writes: :: By the way, my sister was wondering where that store was. She's been trying to find a good Goth store... :: I'm not exactly certain of the name of the town, but he store is called Heebee Jeebees... btw the threats against this woman's life have begun to wane & her local police are aware of them. The situation seems to be coming under better control after an initial burst of scariness. I hope the improvement continues. For an interesting news article from an 'insider' point of view, go to http://www.denverpost.com/news/shot0422l.htm Also for more info on stores & commercial websites you can browse through http://www.toreadors.com/gothfash/ (maybe Heebee Jeebees is in there... I haven't checked!) Robin T ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 20:30:10 EDT From: RThurF@aol.com Subject: Alloy: progress? I was just out at our local deli & only one group of teenage boys threatened to shoot me! I think we're getting somewhere... Robin T ------------------------------ End of alloy-digest V4 #122 ***************************