From: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org (alloy-digest) To: alloy-digest@smoe.org Subject: alloy-digest V4 #120 Reply-To: alloy@smoe.org Sender: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "alloy-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. alloy-digest Thursday, April 22 1999 Volume 04 : Number 120 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Alloy: Colorado (off-topic) [RThurF@aol.com] Re: Alloy: Colorado (off-topic) [Kathleen Truelove ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:50:14 EDT From: RThurF@aol.com Subject: Alloy: Colorado (off-topic) In a message dated 4/20/99 7:03:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jbolton@ooze.nwfsc.noaa.gov writes: :: And for the people in Colorado (news on this horrible shooting just coming in) :: I bring this topic up too, only because I know it must be on everyone's mind right now, especially as we are trying to understand what happened in order to prevent it happening again... though it is completely off-topic & I apologise in advance. Believe me, I'd much rather be thinking of more comforting things right now such as Thomas' beautiful work. Yesterday I was sick with the flu... I didn't know about the massacre until Dave got home from work & switched on the news... then we just sat aghast as we saw what had happened. The sheer evil of it is unspeakable. The eyewitness reports of those kids who managed to get out were almost too much to bear. The horror that all parents of school-age children must be feeling now, doubtlessly worrying that such a thing can happen in their own community, and that there would be no way to predict this type of atrocity, regardless of geographical region, economic affluence, etc. is truly overwhelming. But something else is now making me nervous. The various ways the shooters are described so far never really get to the core of the matter, and quite apart from the immense tragedy the killers have caused, I'm worried that this nationwide panic may end up damaging a lot of peaceful, intelligent, and compassionate young people who could well be described in similar terms such as wearing black, listening to unusual music, even being 'unpopular' or teased as an outcast at school. It worries me because I can tell you, all of those things also described me and my friends in high school, and we were in no way menaces to society. We were peaceful in the extreme - in our beginnings as artists, writers & actors - and would never have associated with any violent psycho Hitler worshippers - they scared us (and yes, they were around back then too) We simply weren't interested in 'fitting in' with the popular crowd, preferring to find our own means of expression. I have known many wonderful and creative people over the years who just aren't part of the mainstream for whatever reason, and are compassionate and loving people who would never even swat at a fly, yet because of their appearance could easily fit the media's 'profile' of these very sick individuals who killed so many innocent people yesterday. I'm afraid the analysts are failing to mention the one common factor which is at the core of violence throughout history, which is of course the killers' overwhelming need to exert power over others, something these kids obviously felt based on descriptions of their behavior during the massacre. Once again, the complete absence of compassion for another living being, the need to be seen as powerful, in charge, feared. Those who have this need will naturally gravitate toward hate-related groups in many cases, as history has shown again and again (whether, of course, thet are accessed through the internet or through other means) This is what the experts should be sending out warning signals for... the behavior which leads up to a child's needing to have power over others, to harm others in order to feel strong, to be indifferent to anothers' pain, whether it be their little brother or their friends or their pet, and what we can do to instruct children to be more caring. We should not be pointing to particular styles of dress, or taste in music. It seems a dangerous thing to generalize about anyone, even if it's in self-defense or perceived self-defense (this is of course how the Jews were villified in post WWI Germany, as 'harmful' to society, same with 'communists' in McCarthyism in the US) A solution to this trend in violence must definitely be found, and I believe it can be, but when it's based on something as banal as physical appearance or social standing then warning lights should begin going off. My heart goes out to the families who have to live through the results of those killers' actions. It is all very scary. Thus ends todays off-topic rant, and on to more pleasant things I hope... Robin T ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:23:54 -0700 From: Kathleen Truelove Subject: Re: Alloy: Colorado (off-topic) RThur, I think the biggest question to ask ourselves is what would any of us do if one of our kids showed the same behavior as these kids who were involved in the unfortunate incident in Colorado. It's not about Gun control. It's not just about their environment. It's about attitude. Where were the parents when these kids started acting this way????? Did the parents teach their children gun safety and respect for other human beings and theirselves?? Obviously something went wrong somewhere!! Anyway, I think this would be a great topic to write a, shall we say, wake up call kind of song about. Maybe Dolby or one of his colleagues or one of us could turn this tragedy into something creative that could get people thinking in the right connection. This is my two cents. Pax Aye, Kate;-) RThurF@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/20/99 7:03:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > jbolton@ooze.nwfsc.noaa.gov writes: > > :: And for the people in Colorado > (news on this horrible shooting just coming in) :: > > I bring this topic up too, only because I know it must be on everyone's mind > right now, especially as we are trying to understand what happened in order > to prevent it happening again... though it is completely off-topic & I > apologise in advance. Believe me, I'd much rather be thinking of more > comforting things right now such as Thomas' beautiful work. > > Yesterday I was sick with the flu... I didn't know about the massacre until > Dave got home from work & switched on the news... then we just sat aghast as > we saw what had happened. The sheer evil of it is unspeakable. The eyewitness > reports of those kids who managed to get out were almost too much to bear. > The horror that all parents of school-age children must be feeling now, > doubtlessly worrying that such a thing can happen in their own community, and > that there would be no way to predict this type of atrocity, regardless of > geographical region, economic affluence, etc. is truly overwhelming. > > But something else is now making me nervous. The various ways the shooters > are described so far never really get to the core of the matter, and quite > apart from the immense tragedy the killers have caused, I'm worried that this > nationwide panic may end up damaging a lot of peaceful, intelligent, and > compassionate young people who could well be described in similar terms such > as wearing black, listening to unusual music, even being 'unpopular' or > teased as an outcast at school. It worries me because I can tell you, all of > those things also described me and my friends in high school, and we were in > no way menaces to society. We were peaceful in the extreme - in our > beginnings as artists, writers & actors - and would never have associated > with any violent psycho Hitler worshippers - they scared us (and yes, they > were around back then too) We simply weren't interested in 'fitting in' with > the popular crowd, preferring to find our own means of expression. I have > known many wonderful and creative people over the years who just aren't part > of the mainstream for whatever reason, and are compassionate and loving > people who would never even swat at a fly, yet because of their appearance > could easily fit the media's 'profile' of these very sick individuals who > killed so many innocent people yesterday. > > I'm afraid the analysts are failing to mention the one common factor which is > at the core of violence throughout history, which is of course the killers' > overwhelming need to exert power over others, something these kids obviously > felt based on descriptions of their behavior during the massacre. Once again, > the complete absence of compassion for another living being, the need to be > seen as powerful, in charge, feared. Those who have this need will naturally > gravitate toward hate-related groups in many cases, as history has shown > again and again (whether, of course, thet are accessed through the internet > or through other means) This is what the experts should be sending out > warning signals for... the behavior which leads up to a child's needing to > have power over others, to harm others in order to feel strong, to be > indifferent to anothers' pain, whether it be their little brother or their > friends or their pet, and what we can do to instruct children to be more > caring. We should not be pointing to particular styles of dress, or taste in > music. It seems a dangerous thing to generalize about anyone, even if it's in > self-defense or perceived self-defense (this is of course how the Jews were > villified in post WWI Germany, as 'harmful' to society, same with > 'communists' in McCarthyism in the US) A solution to this trend in violence > must definitely be found, and I believe it can be, but when it's based on > something as banal as physical appearance or social standing then warning > lights should begin going off. > > My heart goes out to the families who have to live through the results of > those killers' actions. It is all very scary. > > Thus ends todays off-topic rant, and on to more pleasant things I hope... > Robin T ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:52:39 -0600 From: "Keith Stansell" Subject: Re: Alloy: Colorado (off-topic) Lots of people are scratching there heads here. - -Keith Stansell Denver - ----- Original Message ----- From: Kathleen Truelove To: Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 10:23 AM Subject: Re: Alloy: Colorado (off-topic) > > RThur, > I think the biggest question to ask ourselves is what would any of us do if one > of our kids showed the same behavior as these kids who were involved in the > unfortunate incident in Colorado. It's not about Gun control. It's not just about > their environment. It's about attitude. Where were the parents when these kids > started acting this way????? Did the parents teach their children gun safety and > respect for other human beings and theirselves?? Obviously something went wrong > somewhere!! Anyway, I think this would be a great topic to write a, shall we say, > wake up call kind of song about. Maybe Dolby or one of his colleagues or one of > us could turn this tragedy into something creative that could get people thinking > in the right connection. This is my two cents. > > Pax Aye, > Kate;-) > > RThurF@aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 4/20/99 7:03:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > jbolton@ooze.nwfsc.noaa.gov writes: > > > > :: And for the people in Colorado > > (news on this horrible shooting just coming in) :: > > > > I bring this topic up too, only because I know it must be on everyone's mind > > right now, especially as we are trying to understand what happened in order > > to prevent it happening again... though it is completely off-topic & I > > apologise in advance. Believe me, I'd much rather be thinking of more > > comforting things right now such as Thomas' beautiful work. > > > > Yesterday I was sick with the flu... I didn't know about the massacre until > > Dave got home from work & switched on the news... then we just sat aghast as > > we saw what had happened. The sheer evil of it is unspeakable. The eyewitness > > reports of those kids who managed to get out were almost too much to bear. > > The horror that all parents of school-age children must be feeling now, > > doubtlessly worrying that such a thing can happen in their own community, and > > that there would be no way to predict this type of atrocity, regardless of > > geographical region, economic affluence, etc. is truly overwhelming. > > > > But something else is now making me nervous. The various ways the shooters > > are described so far never really get to the core of the matter, and quite > > apart from the immense tragedy the killers have caused, I'm worried that this > > nationwide panic may end up damaging a lot of peaceful, intelligent, and > > compassionate young people who could well be described in similar terms such > > as wearing black, listening to unusual music, even being 'unpopular' or > > teased as an outcast at school. It worries me because I can tell you, all of > > those things also described me and my friends in high school, and we were in > > no way menaces to society. We were peaceful in the extreme - in our > > beginnings as artists, writers & actors - and would never have associated > > with any violent psycho Hitler worshippers - they scared us (and yes, they > > were around back then too) We simply weren't interested in 'fitting in' with > > the popular crowd, preferring to find our own means of expression. I have > > known many wonderful and creative people over the years who just aren't part > > of the mainstream for whatever reason, and are compassionate and loving > > people who would never even swat at a fly, yet because of their appearance > > could easily fit the media's 'profile' of these very sick individuals who > > killed so many innocent people yesterday. > > > > I'm afraid the analysts are failing to mention the one common factor which is > > at the core of violence throughout history, which is of course the killers' > > overwhelming need to exert power over others, something these kids obviously > > felt based on descriptions of their behavior during the massacre. Once again, > > the complete absence of compassion for another living being, the need to be > > seen as powerful, in charge, feared. Those who have this need will naturally > > gravitate toward hate-related groups in many cases, as history has shown > > again and again (whether, of course, thet are accessed through the internet > > or through other means) This is what the experts should be sending out > > warning signals for... the behavior which leads up to a child's needing to > > have power over others, to harm others in order to feel strong, to be > > indifferent to anothers' pain, whether it be their little brother or their > > friends or their pet, and what we can do to instruct children to be more > > caring. We should not be pointing to particular styles of dress, or taste in > > music. It seems a dangerous thing to generalize about anyone, even if it's in > > self-defense or perceived self-defense (this is of course how the Jews were > > villified in post WWI Germany, as 'harmful' to society, same with > > 'communists' in McCarthyism in the US) A solution to this trend in violence > > must definitely be found, and I believe it can be, but when it's based on > > something as banal as physical appearance or social standing then warning > > lights should begin going off. > > > > My heart goes out to the families who have to live through the results of > > those killers' actions. It is all very scary. > > > > Thus ends todays off-topic rant, and on to more pleasant things I hope... > > Robin T > > > ------------------------------ End of alloy-digest V4 #120 ***************************