Matty..> so, this woman who actually MAKES insanely great pop starts posting 
to a list for insanenly great pop, and all anyone can do is bicker with her 
about her not exactly startling observation that men like to ogle female 
artists and sometimes make them uncomfortable in doing so? why not accept 
the fact that she's a woman who's actually experienced this, and take her 
just a little bit seriously? and maybe start talking about music with her?

The whole thing started because she took Gabe's post seriously, even though 
she's been a listmember long enough to know better and even after it was 
explained to her that he was just joking. She didn't post about music and 
then get pounced on. Someone made a comment about geeky glasses and it all 
went to hell from there...like no one has ever menntioned other artists 
appearances before.

+++++

Jason..>Besides, for several years I'm pretty sure I (or at least those in 
my age bracket, natch) were the targets of vitriol from some quarters of 
this list for being too young, and part of a generation that simply didn't 
appreciate good music. I didn't much care about this then, nor do I now, but 
the street cuts two ways.

I remember when you initially brought that up and I didn't understand it 
then and I don't understand it now. Congratulations on your youth. I respect 
people's musical opinions here based on merit not age. Not saying you're not 
oppressed, but usually when I've seen any reference to your age, you brought 
it up. I have no idea how old most of the list members are.

+++++

Shawn..> I don't know that I should have to point this out, but women are 
still a minority in rock, and, regardless of skill level, they still have a 
harder time being taken seriously.  If you're "too" attractive, that's where 
all the focus ends up.  And if you're not attractive (god forbid), you can 
rest assured that will be commented on too.

And I don't know that anyone disagrees with this or doesn't empathise. But 
this whle thing started with a Lisa Loeb reference (lets face it, she has a 
"look" you could use as a touchstone to describe what someone else looks 
like) and was used as a launching pad for other frustrations. I'm sorry that 
women don't get taken on their merits as often as they do on their looks, 
but it's not my policy nor that or most people here, so I resent the 
accusation. Do I think some female artists are hot? Shit yeah - just like 
every hetero woman on thi sboard thinks some guy artists are hot. But no, 
you don't have silly chain posts about who is yummier, and neither do the 
guys. The last conversation I remember was about Liz Phair, but it was more 
because of the combination of the photos on her album and the swing in her 
musical direction. If Audities were around at the time, we'd have had the 
same conversation about Peter Frampton cicra IM IN YOU.

+++++

Mike B..> A lot of these posts were simple expressions of disagreement. 
However, a lot of these folks took it personally -- 'hey, I don't judge 
female artists by their looks'.

I guess you could say I took it personally, because that's what Paula was 
complaining about. Us and our "boy's club" and all. I responded to her 
initial post with what I thought was a polite and supportive message which 
apparently totally flew by the wayside.

+++++

Alan>..In my world, you state your opinion, someone may disagree with it, 
you talk it out, you wind up agreeing with each other or you don't. In other 
words, you agree to disagree, but you agree to get along. It doesn't always 
work out like that, of course, but that's the goal.

Rest assured we're on the same planet, buddy. The nature of a list alters 
the normalcy of the pace of a conversation, let alone the absence of sound 
and visuals. Life's too short to forget that and let these matters spiral 
out of control.


cheers
b