Rick:

You are certainly entitled to your opinions, as I am to mine. That my 
opinions are derived from a fair amount of first-hand experience as 
opposed to the filters you get yours from, though, should be taken into 
account.

> I think you mean "most commercially successful". I might be in the minority, but I find Kirby's Fourth World and Challengers of the 
> Unknown, to name but two examples, to be far superior to any of his Marvel Work.<<

No I don't mean "most commercially successful". I think a lot depends on 
what your personal "golden age" was (I'd guess I'm at least several 
years older than you). Jack's 4th World was full of amazing concepts and 
characters, along with many not-fully baked ideas, incomplete stories 
and some of comics' most stilted dialogue of the time. That genius 
needed an editor and sadly didn't have one for his 4th World tenure.

  >Kirby was creative for close to 20 years before teaming up with Lee.<

Of course he was---but he was also partnered with Joe Simon for a lot of 
that time. Simon was a better dialogue man, better businessman and 
better editor than Jack, even though Kirby was second to none as an 
artist and concept man. Simon and Lee served in much of the same 
capacities with Kirby, albeit at different times.

 > Trust me, Joe, I know my history.<

Yes, you know one (stilted) version of history. There are at least two 
sides to every story. I've read the books you mentoned. I was asked by 
Tom Spurgeon to sit on the panel with him and Jordan and Gary Groth at 
San Diego to talk about Stan's career. "The Rise and Fall..." was a not 
entirely balanced look at Stan, but even Tom and Jordan would admit 
they came to the material with an agenda. So don't take their book as 
the Bible of Stan. And I'd say the very same thing about Stan's own 
"autobiography".

> I think Lee, like Mike Love, made the more personal, darker visions of  their creative better halves more palatable and accessible to the 
> Public. <<

I'd never classify Kirby's body of work as "dark". And I wouldn't 
classify any of the involved parties as "better" than the other. Each 
did some things exceptionally well, while each did some things not very 
well at all. With Stan, you used the term "huckster" and even he might 
agree with that. From my observation, Stan marketed what he worked on 
creatively far better than the reclusive Ditko or the 
sometimes-insulated Kirby.

>>I'm not entirely dismissing your McCartney comparison here,  since he's been accused by some of being an artistic lightweight 
> compared to Lennon, but I'm not taking sides in *that* never-ending debate.< 

I'll take sides on that one in a heartbeat. Macca over Lennon all the 
way. And yes, a fair amount of Macca's output has been light, poppy 
stuff, but I've always preferred my worldview to be on the sunny 
side--and I'd never consider Macca to be an "artistic lightweight". Yes, 
Paul has been a better self-promoter to the masses than Lennon ever was. 
Lennon knew how to strike up the controversy, but in terms of endearing 
himself to the masses, Paul had it all over John.

But John and Paul together? That's way better than either of them 
individually...each needed the additions, deletions and editing of the 
other. Something like Lee and Kirby, Simon and Kirby, Lee and Ditko, etc...

>>Stan is known to be just about the ultimate shmoozer.<<< 

You know, Rick, that's not a bad thing. Being a good schmoozer and good 
person are not mutually exclusive. I can only tell you again that my 
first-hand personal experience with Stan has always been a pleasure. I'm 
sorry if that's not good enough for you. By the way, have you ever even 
met the guy? Or are you letting what others tell you third-hand be the 
basis for your opinions?

 >>Stan does right by anyone who worships him, clearly.<<

I do not worship Stan. I do think Stan does right by anyone who does 
right him. Are you any different?

We'll probably agree to disagree on this topic, Rick, so let's get back 
to music, huh?

Joe Field (no added 's', please)
Flying Colors Comics & Other Cool Stuff
Concord CA
http://FlyingColorsComics.com

np: Scott McCarl "Nobody Knows"