smoe.org mailing lists
ivan@stellysee.de
| From | "Jeff" <jeff.teez@comcast.net> |
| Subject | Re: too much and or not enough |
| Date | Sun, 13 May 2007 01:13:36 -0400 |
[Part 1 text/plain Windows-1252 (14.9 kilobytes)]
(View Text in a separate window)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 15:42:26 -0400
From: "Jaimie Vernon" <>
To: audities@smoe.org
Subject: Message-ID: <BAY115-F35E54FC21103C389B06FFDDA380@phx.gbl>
AT Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 12:37:36 Jeff wrote:
>I'm just fantasizing here that I represent the typical consumer of
>music:
>
>We, the consumers, will determine the value of your musical product
>because we ARE the marketplace. You can accept that reality or not,
>obviously. Your fortunes (literally or figuratively) or lack thereof
>will no doubt follow your decision. Collectively, we'll decide with our
>ears and then our dollars what your music is worth. We may decide that
>it's worth $2.00 a track, or we may decide that it's worth .09 cents a
>track (the current going rate on the lowest priced Russian mp3 sites).
Interesting perspective. Let's see you apply that to gas stations, car
dealerships and auto insurance companies. Just "try" and tell them you
won't
pay their prices. They will laugh you right out of their facilities.
Why?
Because what they provide is deemed a necessity and set the prices
anyway
they damn well please. Once upon a time music was held in that regard.
Now
it's just a commodity. The knobs before us changed all that. Now we're
struggling to survive because our predecessors fucked it up for everyone
(kinda like my parents' generation screwing over the environment and
leaving
us with a toxic waste dump of a planet we now have to clean up....or
probably not because we've been indoctrinated into this lifestyle as
well...but I digress).
*** I certainly agree with you that there is a difference between
necessities and commodities. We mostly have to buy cars, gas, and car
insurance. But I'll always shop for the best price for each of those.
Isn't that's what's happening with music? I agree also that it's all
been severely screwed up by those who came before. Their greed ruined an
entire industry. I'm just not sure about the music being devalued, and I
know that's one of your main tenets. I'm sure it must most certainly
feel devalued to you, and prices and market conditions now are surely
causing you great hardship. But have we consumers devalued it or are we
merely acting like, well, consumers, for the most part? Understand that
I was only fantasizing about being in the majority. Surely, it's hard to
speak for everyone since there are so many different moral standards out
there.
>We may even decide that it's not worth anything at all and choose to
>ignore you entirely.
Well, that's obvious from the fact that fewer of *you* are buying from
*us*.
When the hell did it become us vs. them? Most of the biz people on this
list
are consumers too.
***We are in complete agreement on this point. It's a terrible shame
that it's come to this. I was well aware of that when I was composing my
email. Please understand that I was trying to frame this in as large a
frame as I could muster, in order to make my larger point. If consumers
choose to ignore an artist entirely, I'm assuming, for this argument
anyway, that it's because the music is terrible. You biz folks make the
same judgement, obviously, when making your own purchases and when
deciding whether or not to release an album.
>Ultimately, it's OUR decision, not yours or anyone associated with you.
>You
>put it out there >however you're able and however you see fit. We can
>handle it from there.
That's fine. Just stop bitching about the labels that pull their
business
out of E-Music. Because they don't see it as being "fit".
***I've not, personally, though others have made that point. I feel that
eMusic is neither the devil nor an angel in this, that they are
somewhere at least "near" the middle, but your posts of late have
certainly taught me alot that I didn't know before. I'm not a member of
emusic, though I've been in the past. I'll re-think joining again. I'm
betting that this is a huge transition period for them. Maybe the best
position to take is to sit back and watch for a while.
>We don't need to or want to pay your publicists, lawyers or anyone
>else.
>We'll gladly pay YOU for >the music you make. If I decide that I want
>to
>take your music home with me (in a physical or >digital sense), then
>I'll
>most happily put my $15.00 of hard-earned cash in your hand after
>seeing
> >you play LIVE. I'll put it in YOUR hand and very much enjoy seeing
> >you
>tuck it into YOUR pocket.
Oh...if only that were true we wouldn't be having this discussion at
all.
***Okay, we're at complete loggerheads here, though. How is it not true?
I go to see artists play live and I buy their cd's at whatever price
they're asking. Is that not happening everywhere now? I would much
prefer to pay the person who created the music and no one else. I'm
hoping that artists now can be self-contained so that they DO control
all the money that comes in. We must be misunderstanding each other here
on this point.
>If you want to split it up amongst your business associates or whomever
>else after that, that's up >to you. But don't expect or ask ME to pay
>them.
>And that's exactly what I'm doing by
>paying iTunes, EMI or anyone else.
Including E-music? Cause they're just discounting those built-in fees
from
lawyers, publicists, publishers, et al.
***Yes, I should have included eMusic, you're right. I just don't think
we should have to pay the "infrastructure" anymore in this new music
economy. The digital age has provided new opportunities for musicians to
control their own destiny.
>I'm not personally responsible to any of you in the music business
>anymore
>than any of you are >personally responsible to me. You can try to *make
>this* personal all you want, but it's basically >bread on the table v.
>music on the victrola. Put the product out or don't, but don't blame
>your
> >problems on us. We're just fans and, ultimately, consumers. We're not
>here to help you pay your >phone bill just because you're *trying
>really,
>really hard*.
Now hold on. The CONSUMERS were the ones that made it personal by
declaring
foul on pricing and claiming that the industry has been gouging them for
decades. If indeed the consumer has free will then why did it take the
download revolution to spark defiance? Where the hell were your
multitude of
"we'll buy what we want when we want" during the CD re-issue phase, huh?
People fell over themselves replacing entire collections, groaning about
prices but, ultimately STILL buying the stuff. Where was the boycotting
and
stomping of feet and temper tantrums then? Had you actually stood by
your
convictions the prices would have gone down then. The labels would have
had
no choice.
Sorry, but the consumer has been a co-dependent in this pricing f*ck
over
relationship for years.
***When CD's came out, I think we were all a bit overwhelmed by the
pristine digital sound and that blinded us to the reality of how badly
we were being gouged. Defiance was sparked BEFORE the digital download
revolution. Consumers have been complaining about CD prices for a long,
long time, have they not? When I was in record retail from 1987 through
1990, they were certainly complaining to us. I'll bow to your extensive
experience here Jamie, but I just don't see how we've been co-dependent.
Complacent maybe, but you're saying that it was partially our fault that
prices remained artificially high because we didn't take action? I don't
know ... I'll consider it further though.
All I see now are consumer vultures swooping in while the industry licks
its
wounds and grabbing whatever they can. This is musical anarchy, folks.
Enjoy
it while it lasts cause once you've done picking over the carcass there
will
be less choices when the dust clears. Believe me, artists and labels are
dropping by the minute....meaning the only music being made will be that
created by converted consumers who will start making their own cause
there'll be nothing left to consume from this generation's talent pool.
**All due respect, Sir, but I see this a very EXTREME view. We're now
*vultures*? You really mean that your customers are vultures? I believe
that you're connecting dots that aren't even on the same page. This
generations talent pool will be tapped out and out of business because
labels and artists are dropping out? Won't there always be new talent
emerging and grabbing our interests? Is the music business going to come
to a complete halt? If it does, I don't think that's necessarily a bad
thing. I really do believe that there needs to be a shaking out period,
and a big one. Let's all start over. Music existed in great glory before
all this mess, and I believe it will surely survive and thrive once
again in the near future. It'll be a different scene entirely, but I
hope it will be a fairer one for everyone concerned.
>Aren't you just pissing into the wind when you complain that some/most
>people want to pay as >little as possible or even nothing for your
>music?
>No kidding. Isn't that, in part at least, and for only >SOME of us,
>human
>nature?
Not when you're taking advantage of it.
***Wait, all I'm saying is that complaining about it doesn't accomplish
anything. SOME people will always want something for nothing. I'm not
one of those, and I doubt if there are many Auditeers who'd fit that
description. I believe what you're saying is that even consumers who use
eMusic are taking advantage, is that right?
>What in the world can you possibly do about it?
Currently there are coalitions being formed by labels and artists on the
tier below the major labels creating a NEW paradigm that may very well
result in pricing fixes WORSE than the ones everyone's complaining
about.
Like the gas giants or the auto industry, there will be new alliances
and
pricing initiatives that will make your ability to buy music as cheap as
you
want more difficult. It's ever been that way.
***I don't know enough to comment intelligently on this aspect expect to
say that for every action, there's an opposite and often more violent
REaction. Whatever they choose to do, we can undo it or modify it to
meet whatever the market demands.
When the internet providers and cellphone companies start getting into
the
music business full time you will be paying flat fees for your service
for
unlimited downloads like EMusic....but these fees will be ridiculous
cause,
again, who has ever stepped up and challenged the providers of phone
services and basic cable? No one. The governments can't even regulate
these
people effectively.
*** I don't believe that these will EVER be our only choices. The
situation will continue to evolve.
>What do you propose? I'd suggest that you accept that reality and
>either
>keep making music >within the current parameters or don't. But for
>God's
>sake, please stop whining about it.
It's only whining if you're not the one being affected by it. For the
rest
of us it's panic in the streets. Michael Carpenter's last post showed
his
true fear of having his music silenced. It was palpable. And not a
whining
sentence amongst the backdrop of anguish.
*** I regret using the word whining (and most of that paragraph,
truthfully) and I apologize to Michael and everyone else I may have
offended. It's not for me or anyone else to try and moderate the tone or
content of conversation on this list. That was a very immature comment
on my part. I'm sorry. Anger and frustration got in the way of good
sense.
>I'd sure be interested in hearing what the 650 OTHER auditeers who
>don't
>regularly (or ever) post >here think about all this.
I would too....cause so far I've been shown exactly WHY we're in
financial
trouble. It would be nice to hear from a consumer who doesn't believe
that
everyone in the music industry is just dogshit on the bottom of their
shoe.
***I don't believe that, Jaimie. Not everyone in the industry is
dogshit, but there are certainly a lot of people who'd fit that
description, and they've ruined it for a lot of people. I never said
that everyone was part of the problem. I do believe that the music
business is one of the nastiest you can find, that's well documented.
The few good folks are paying the price for the all the nasties who've
come and taken a collective dump on the whole scene. This list is
populated by the good guys, for the most part. God bless 'em all for
trying.
Lastly, please let me address just this: I knew that I'd be catching a
lot of grief for this latest post of mine. It may seem like I've done
some back-pedaling here and in a few posts that preceeded this one. I
have, but mostly I've just been clarifying my position (as many of us
who aren't great writers often do here on audities when trying to
express ourselves). I continue to stand by most of what I said. I, like
Bob Hutton at first, may have been a bit strident in some respects, and
I'm sorry for that. I painted with a wide brush because the points that
I was making demanded it. It's a hard thing to write about when you're
not a good writer and I'm sincerely trying to contribute to everyone
seeing a really big picture here. And for that, you have to clearly show
the relationship between the content provider and the end consumer. Thus
my aggressively pro-consumer stance. I am angry at what I see as great
arrogance on the part of some label folks and some musicians on this
list and in the music business in general. How dare you try to tell me
what kind of music consumer you think I should be. That's my decision.
Don't tell me who to support and how. Don't tell me where to spend my
money. And please, don't condescend and try to tell me that we have some
responsibility to each other and, further, that I don't understand how
hard it is to make a record and get it out to the public. That's
insulting to the many fine minds here on Audities. This is business,
product and pricing. Don't blur the lines and blame the consumer. You're
alienating us ever further. That's at least part of the reason for the
mad grab for low-priced tracks and albums. Many people believe that many
of you are getting exactly what you've deserved for a long, long time.
In retail, I was once part of the problem, and I met the scum who ran
our chain. I bailed when they had the nerve to demand that we squeeze
our loyal customers for even MORE profit by pushing the higher margin
items. "Sir, can I interest you in a cheap plastic CD display case to go
with that CD you've just paid too much for?" It's an ugly business, top
to bottom, and it's about to change for the better, I believe, in the
long run.
The Big Bomb has surely already dropped. We're now struggling through
The Fallout. Many soldiers have died and many more are slowly dying in
some horrible Walter Reed Music Industry Hospital. The Great Starting
Over has already begun. Everyone is gonna land somewhere, and I kinda
think that for digital downloads, 79 cents a track seems about right
<big smile>, as long as the great majority of it goes to the artist. You
can buy songs from MySpace now, can't you? How much does that cost the
artist?
jeff t.
For assistance, please contact
the smoe.org administrators.