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ivan@stellysee.de
| From | Benjamin Lukoff <blukoff@alvord.com> |
| Subject | Re: pak |
| Date | Mon, 29 Jan 2007 09:51:29 -0800 (PST) |
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God, it's getting like fegmaniax over here now.
On Mon, 29 Jan 2007, Michael Bennett wrote:
> Wow -- you basically didn't respond to my pointing out the content of your
> first response to Paula's post. You never made a value judgment of Paula,
> but you called her thin-skinned -- can you see the contradiction? Of
> course, based on the closing of your post, I suppose all the men here have
> such thin skins, they need you to defend them.
>
> Likewise, to accuse me of accusations, when your primary argumentative
> techniques are distorting other people's words (Paula never called anyone
> sexist in her initial post and I didn't use the word cavemen -- that's
> exaggeration) and setting up strawmen for arguments (like your last lengthy
> post) is really rich.
>
> My point remains -- if you hadn't felt the need to call Paula thin-skinned,
> maybe this whole thing wouldn't have started. And my secondary point --
> that some responses to Paula's post were immature -- is my opinion.
>
> And you won't bully me into shutting up about it.
>
> Mike Bennett
>
>
>
>
>
> Blog: http://blog.myspace.com/mrhonorama
> Record reviews and more at http://fufkin.com
> Find out about Chicago shows:
> http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/chicagopopshowreport/
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: rob@splitsville.com
> >Reply-To: audities@smoe.org
> >To: audities@smoe.org, audities@smoe.org, audities@smoe.org
> >Subject: RE: Re: pak
> >Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 08:45:11 -0500
> >
> >Fact: she used the sexist term 'boys club'
> >Fact: she unsubscribed and fled a place that expressed disagreement with
> >her views.
> >Mature?
> >
> >And I still firmly believe that if we were all bashing the 'music tarts' of
> >today (Britney, et al) we wouldn't hear any protests. But they're women
> >too, right?
> >
> > >While to me, this is a
> > >fairly obvious point, apparently a lot of people
> > >took this as a personal
> > >affront and piled on to Paula.
> >
> >Their moves, not mine. My posts were statements of opinion. I never made a
> >value judgement about Paula as a person, a musician, a woman or a message
> >poster. I have nothing but respect for any musician who creates and puts
> >his/her art out in public for all to see and to judge.
> >
> > >I think that Paula only got defensive when it was
> > >conveyed to her that her
> > >point of view wasn't even worth expressing, and
> > >that, effectively, she
> > >should just shut up.
> >You're picking up the ball and running with it, aren't you my son? An
> >exaggeration.
> >
> >Regardless, I think the
> > >reactions of Auditeers were
> > >immature and revealed more about the attitude of
> > >men towards women than
> > >Paula's initial post did.
> >
> >Such wisdom. A couple of questionalble posts, and we're all cavemen? That's
> >an insult to all the men on this board.
> >
> > >----- ------- Original Message ------- -----
> > >From: :audities@smoe.org
> > >To: audities@smoe.org
> > >Sent: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 07:32:07
> > >
> > >Y'know, you noted near the end of your first
> > >response to Paula's first post
> > >with "stop being so thin-skinned." This was in
> > >response to a post that made
> > >a general observation that it basically sucks that
> > >women tend to judged more
> > >on their looks in the music world then men do.
> > >While to me, this is a
> > >fairly obvious point, apparently a lot of people
> > >took this as a personal
> > >affront and piled on to Paula. A lot of these
> > >posts were simple expressions
> > >of disagreement. However, a lot of these folks
> > >took it personally -- 'hey,
> > >I don't judge female artists by their looks'.
> > >
> > >What really escalated this thread was this whole
> > >'stop being so
> > >thin-skinned' thing. Respond to her point,
> > >disagree, explain why -- that's
> > >all good and fine. But there was nothing in her
> > >original post that was way
> > >out of line -- she just expressed her opinion, and
> > >you went beyond
> > >disagreeing, but, by telling her to stop being so
> > >thin skinned (and,
> > >advising her that "it's a big bad world out there"
> > >-- such wisdom!), you're
> > >response came off as personally demeaning.
> > >
> > >I think that Paula only got defensive when it was
> > >conveyed to her that her
> > >point of view wasn't even worth expressing, and
> > >that, effectively, she
> > >should just shut up. Regardless, I think the
> > >reactions of Auditeers were
> > >immature and revealed more about the attitude of
> > >men towards women than
> > >Paula's initial post did.
> > >
> > >Mike Bennett
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Blog: http://blog.myspace.com/mrhonorama
> > >Record reviews and more at http://fufkin.com
> > >Find out about Chicago shows:
> > >http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/chicagopopshow
> > >report/
> > >
> > >
> > >>From: rob@splitsville.com
> > >>Reply-To: audities@smoe.org
> > >>To: audities@smoe.org
> > >>Subject: RE: pak
> > >>Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 06:00:43 -0500
> > >>
> > >>No, the problem is that when someone states an
> > >opinion that you either
> > >>disagree with, or you don't see it from their
> > >point of view, you're then
> > >>automatically branded some kind of '-ist'.
> > >>Obviously, because I and one or two others didn't
> > >really like the librarian
> > >>look, we're sexist.
> > >>
> > >>I never liked some of Prince's looks, or his over
> > >the top ego, but does
> > >>that make me racist?
> > >>Regardless of how idiotic he acts sometimes, it
> > >doesn't change my opinion
> > >>of him, that he's ridiculously talented and one of
> > >the greatest musicians
> > >>ever.
> > >>
> > >>I'm saddened by the fact that Aretha Franklin has
> > >let herself get morbidy
> > >>obese and looks like she's going to drop dead of
> > >cardiac arrest at any
> > >>moment or lose body parts to something like
> > >diabetes. Am I now racist? And
> > >>sexist? And uhhh...weight-ist?
> > >>I still think her voice is the equivalent of an
> > >American monument that
> > >>should be placed on the Washington Mall.
> > >>
> > >>In the early 80's I absolutely HATED Pete
> > >Townshend's 'new Romantic'
> > >>haircuts and drug fueled behavior. And his pony
> > >tail on the 1989 Tommy tour
> > >>made him look absolutely daft.
> > >>Am I now an Anglophobe?
> > >>I'd still crawl through mud to touch the cuff of
> > >his pants, lousy haircut
> > >>or not. He's still me absolute effing hero.
> > >>
> > >>Paula came out painting with a very wide brush,
> > >which I thought was a bit
> > >>severe.
> > >>If you check out her site, one of her causes is
> > >'Women in Rock', which is
> > >>great, more power to you, and it's admirable when
> > >people find a passion
> > >>within themselves and act on it.
> > >>
> > >>But don't act as if people are troglodytes if they
> > >don't agree with you or
> > >>see things from your point of view.
> > >>(As two a couple of the vitrolic posts- yes, they
> > >were foolish, unnecessary
> > >>and not constructive. C'mon Lads, you can do
> > >better.) If you come out with
> > >>an axe to grind and looking for an argument,
> > >you'll usually get it.
> > >>
> > >>Rob
> > >>NP: Motley Crue, 'Girls, Girls, Girls' (joke)
> > >>
> > >> >----- ------- Original Message ------- -----
> > >> >From: troubledoll@mindspring.com
> > >> >To: audities@smoe.org
> > >> >Sent: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
> > >19:56:50
> > >> >
> > >> >so, this woman who actually MAKES insanely great
> > >> >pop starts posting to a list for insanenly great
> > >> >pop, and all anyone can do is bicker with her
> > >about
> > >> >her not exactly startling observation that men
> > >like
> > >> >to ogle female artists and sometimes make them
> > >> >uncomfortable in doing so? why not accept the
> > >fact
> > >> >that she's a woman who's actually experienced
> > >this,
> > >> >and take her just a little bit seriously? and
> > >maybe
> > >> >start talking about music with her?
> > >> >
> > >> >for the record, my band has played with paula's,
> > >> >and we all think she's the bees knees. she IS
> > >> >beautiful, for what it's worth, but what matters
> > >is
> > >> >she knows how to carry herself, and she's a
> > >great
> > >> >performer because of THAT. not to mention that
> > >she
> > >> >writes great songs (which sometimes evoke
> > >> >bacharach/david) and she sings and plays them
> > >damn
> > >> >well.
> > >> >
> > >> >matty
> > >
> > >___________________________________________________
> > >______________
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> > >agline_12/06
>
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